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| | Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 18:07
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | On language attrition when one moves out of one's native area | Jul 28, 2013 |
One of the issues that turned contentious in this thread was whether native-level command weakens when a person lives away from his native area for extended periods of time.
I found an interesting case in the link given by Ty which confirms that this indeed happens, and people staying away from their native areas do indeed lose command over their native language. Here is the full quote:
Jeff Allen wrote:
RafaLee wrote:
Do your partner and you speak your own language to each other ?
I believed in the theoretical concept of mother tongue for many years (even in teaching applied linguistics courses on the topic).
English is my "so-called" mother tongue. I spoke it monolingually for 25 or so years at home in my home country (yet I did speak other languages because I was a foreign language major).
Now I have been living outside of an English-speaking environment for about 15 or so years. All of my home vocabulary has been in French during that period. All of my house-renovation vocabulary has been learned in French. Everything is done in French. My wife and I even speak with native English speakers (also living in French) in French. However, my daytime job in the software development field has been primarily written English for many years, spoken English over the phone, and spoken French with colleagues at the French office.
In this case, language choice and use depends on the context, and language erosion of my "mother tongue" has occurred. This was clearly evident when my siblings (English monolinguals) came to visit us, and I couldn't remember a lot of household vocabulary in English, but the French words came out easily. So I ended up translating the French words into English.
Just like someone else mentioned in a posting in this thread, having kids changed the whole scenario. For the past year I have been speaking English to our son, but continue to speak French to my wife. So my English vocabulary is coming back because I have to force myself to remember the words so that he can learn them too.
Sometimes I will now speak to my wife in English when in the presence of our son, just because we want him to get as much exposure to English as possible.
Based on this experience, I have started to make a distinction between the following:
* mother tongue (and father tongue if parents speak different languages)
* school language (if you grew up in a country/ies learning a language different from the one spoken at home; in some cases, I have friends from African countries who master English or French better than the national languages spoken by their parents at home)
* working language (this is the case of many people who master English very, very well because of their professional life, but who have never spoken it at home)
I also believe that there are levels of bilingual. And there are levels of being bicultural. For example, I am not "100% bicultural" because I don't always get some jokes that my French friends say when they make reference to Asterix and Tintin comic books. I didn't grow up with those books. But that will certainly change over the years as I end up learning them by reading them to my kids.
Jeff
Jeff Allen
[Edited at 2004-10-12 12:43] [Edited at 2004-12-29 13:03]
| | | | | Language attrition is a real thing. I probably mentioned somewhere | Jul 28, 2013 |
that my mother spoke mostly German when she was a child, and then she had to speak Polish -- she might have even liked the language -- but she actually learned it at the age of 6, and almost completely forgot German. You couldn't tell that she learned the language later.
I don't believe that the competence of a person who has lived in another country for over 10 years, is the same as the competence of someone who has lived in the country of origin most of their life.
... See more that my mother spoke mostly German when she was a child, and then she had to speak Polish -- she might have even liked the language -- but she actually learned it at the age of 6, and almost completely forgot German. You couldn't tell that she learned the language later.
I don't believe that the competence of a person who has lived in another country for over 10 years, is the same as the competence of someone who has lived in the country of origin most of their life.
And I absolutely understand Jeff's experience, having come from a home where almost everyone had a different first language, and having lived in a few countries since my early childhood.
[Edited at 2013-07-28 18:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:37
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| "Competent translators" | Jul 28, 2013 |
Who are all these translators you keep referring to Bala? Who is so hard done-by? This site abounds with people who have over-inflated views of their language skills. There may be a few people here (including on this thread) with excellent English (for example) but it's simply not good enough and given the choice between that and a native speaker of English for a translation into English, the answer would be a no-brainer for me as an outso... See more Who are all these translators you keep referring to Bala? Who is so hard done-by? This site abounds with people who have over-inflated views of their language skills. There may be a few people here (including on this thread) with excellent English (for example) but it's simply not good enough and given the choice between that and a native speaker of English for a translation into English, the answer would be a no-brainer for me as an outsourcer.
P.S. Ironically, I've often found in these discussions (which crop up with alarming regularity) that it's usually the non-native English speakers who aren't protesting/demanding that the native requirement be lifted who are the most skilled at the language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:07
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Some typo there Lisa, for I didn't get your meaning | Jul 28, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
P.S. Ironically, I've often found in these discussions (which crop up with alarming regularity) that it's usually the non-native English speakers who aren't protesting/demanding that the native requirement be lifted who are the most skilled at the language.
???
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| I think the writing skills of many younger generation people | Jul 28, 2013 |
these days, even so called -- native, are not the best. This is what many English teachers complain about. Texting might be one of the factors that add to the deterioration of the written language -- this is what a few high school teachers told me, that it is even hard for them to make the students write anything at all, like half a page, not like in the old good times, about twenty years ago when all the students of the humanities had excellent writing skills. Most people cannot write at all, ... See more these days, even so called -- native, are not the best. This is what many English teachers complain about. Texting might be one of the factors that add to the deterioration of the written language -- this is what a few high school teachers told me, that it is even hard for them to make the students write anything at all, like half a page, not like in the old good times, about twenty years ago when all the students of the humanities had excellent writing skills. Most people cannot write at all, these days. I like the style of some Oxford students and graduates, and perhaps a few other schools, including some US universities, not necessarily the most expensive ones.
Translation is a very complex profession -- so writing skills are really essential. I think it might be wise to concentrate on that part rather than fuzzy matches versus less fuzzy matches.
[Edited at 2013-07-28 18:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Definitely correct! | Jul 28, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
there is a reason why agencies and clients stick to the natives only principle and it's very simple: most translations done by non-natives are rubbish. There are obviously exceptions, but they are very few. This means that it's very uneconomical for agencies and clients to waste their time testing non-natives when they have thousands of very competent natives on their book. Again, even if 50% of these are rubbish at what they do, the percentage of natives doing a good job will be far higher than that of non-natives. Thus, using non-natives is impractical, uneconomical and far riskier.
As far as Proz is concerned: ask them to introduce a "near native" button. They might laugh, they might think it's a good idea. You never know...
I think there is a need to balance two criteria:
- language native-ness - needed for inspirational or otherwise "soft" material;
- subject matter "citizenship" - needed for technical or otherwise "hard" material
Surprisingly, I didn't notice anyone in this heated and extended argument mentioning subject area specialization. Of course, its need relies on the audience targeted for that specific material. If it comprises mostly practising pros in that area, (bilingual) specialization becomes more important for a translator than being a native speaker.
I can see it clearly from where I stand:
Management development courseware - My key specialty. I've had three professors from renowned US universities independently wishing their graduate students could express those thoughts as clearly and properly as I do it in (my technically non-native) English.
Medicine - I am the first to assert that any technical medicine text translation I did into my truly native Portuguese would be absolute crap. That's why I don't do them, as boldly stated on my web site (plus four other subject areas).
So my take is that while it may be not so economical, specialized translation - as it draws higher rates - fully justifies an agency PM looking far beyond the native-speaker-only criterion.
Taking the chance, a sidetracking tidbit covered on some post(s) here:
Mistaking "its" for "it's" and vice-versa.
To me, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy launched by native EN speakers.
I have NEVER seen a Brazilian translator - no matter how insipient on other counts - commit such mistake.
On the other hand, now and then, more often than I'd expect, I receive original business agreements drafted in the US of A, supposedly by learned attorneys-at-law, who do it wrong every time they have a chance.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Replies to a hidden post |
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| Eye-opener... | Jul 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
One of the issues that turned contentious in this thread was whether native-level command weakens when a person lives away from his native area for extended periods of time.
I found an interesting case in the link given by Ty which confirms that this indeed happens, and people staying away from their native areas do indeed lose command over their native language. Here is the full quote:
sorry, but this indicates that you don't have a clue. I am in the exact situation and I can tell you that you never lose your writing skills, which are entirely different from your speaking skills. It's very easy to keep your writing skills flowing: you just need to read a lot in your native language. Even if you live abroad, this is very very easy to do.
I can assure you that your speaking skills come back completely within only 3 days of returning to your country. I live in England and I'm in Italy right now. It's like I never left. True professionals look after their skills, it's their job. So, please, stop being so patronising, thinking you know it all.
| | | | | If this were only a commercial world | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
but unfortunately, it's a commercial world. You should be angry with your non-natives colleagues that give you a bad name...
some companies could give work to blond people only, men only, or people under the age of 30, let's say -- but they can't. I am not even sure why I am saying this -- the post was not related to me, but I just feel such attitude is totally wrong.
Perhaps because some moronic companies classify the so called native language by someone's last name, and if it does not sound English, even if the person was a third generation American, let's say, some administrative personnel of certain companies from outside of the US, especially, might still have doubts about their language skills. If your name is John Smith, they don't have any doubts, even if you only speak French.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:43 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:07
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | But that in fact confirms it | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
One of the issues that turned contentious in this thread was whether native-level command weakens when a person lives away from his native area for extended periods of time.
I found an interesting case in the link given by Ty which confirms that this indeed happens, and people staying away from their native areas do indeed lose command over their native language. Here is the full quote:
sorry, but this indicates that you don't have a clue. I am in the exact situation and I can tell you that you never lose your writing skills, which are entirely different from your speaking skills. It's very easy to keep your writing skills flowing: you just need to read a lot in your native language. Even if you live abroad, this is very very easy to do.
I can assure you that your speaking skills come back completely within only 3 days of returning to your country. I live in England and I'm in Italy right now. It's like I never left. True professionals look after their skills, it's their job. So, please, stop being so patronising, thinking you know it all.
The very fact that you have to put in an extra effort, such as reading a lot, confirms that retaining your hold over your native competence while outside your native area is like rowing upstream. You need to work hard even to remain where you are. Chances of slipping up are constantly there and if you let your guard down even for a moment, you lose your native competency. As for reading material, the likelihood of getting the latest reading material in your native language in a place outside the native area would be small. So there would be some practical difficulties too in maintaining a living contact with your language when you are not in your native area.
The same applies to speaking. You yourself confirm that your speaking skills deteriorate when you move out of your native area, and they come back only after you reimmerse yourself in the native culture. This may not be possible for people who have permanently moved out of their native area. Which means their speaking skill rapidly deteriorates when they are out of their native area.
What all this means is that even natives have to work hard to retain their competency in their working languges, and it is not that natives simply are born with a high level of proficiency in their language which they retain till the end. And any agency blindly selecting natives for a translation job without checking out all these details, such as the level of competency the native retains, whether he lives in his native area or not, and if not to what extend he maintains a living contact with his native area, are critically important for ascertaining the competence of a native translator for a particular job.
If an agency is prepared to go to this length to verify the native's competency, it would be only a small step for it to also similarly verify the competency of a non-native. So this in a way cuts your argument that verifying non-native competency would be time-consuming, costly and impractical.
In fact that was exactly what was being argued all along, that agencies need to more rigorously check their translators's competency, irrespective of them being native or non-native.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:46 GMT]
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LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Some companies could give work to blond people only, men only, or people under the age of 30, let's say -- but they can't. I am not even sure why I am saying this -- the post was not related to me, but I just feel such attitude is totally. Perhaps because some moronic companies classify the so called native language by some ones last name, and if it does not sound English, even if the person was a third generation American,let's say,some administrative personnel of some companies from outside of the US, especially might still have doubts about their language. If you are called John Smith,they din't have nay doubts,even if you only spoke French.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:24 GMT]
these companies are to be avoided anyway, if they can't do their job properly. Surely, the good companies look at all the details? Do you work for any of these "moronic" companies? Incompetent companies exist everywhere, in any field. Again, if good companies stick to 'natives only' selection criteria, there must be a reason. Are they all moronic? I'm sure you are going to answer 'yes', so it's a bit of a rethorical question... 
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| Of course not | Jul 29, 2013 |
because they don't pay enough, usually, or just get on my nerves, so I don't deal with them after two e-mails. Unfortunately I feel like such companies may constitute around 80% of all companies,these days.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:41 GMT]
| | | | | Not at all... | Jul 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The very fact that you have to put in an extra effort, such as reading a lot, confirms that retaining your hold over your native competence while outside your native area is like rowing upstream. You need to work hard even to remain where you are. Chances of slipping up are constantly there if you let your guard down even for a moment, you lose your native competency. As for reading material, the likelihood of getting the latest reading material in your native language in a place outside the native area would be small.
The same applies to speaking. You yourself confirm that your speaking skills deteriorate when you move out of your native area, and they come back only after you reimmerse yourself in the native culture. This may not be possible for people who have permanently moved out of their native area. Which means their speaking skills rapidly deteriorates when they are out of their native area.
What all this means is that even natives have to work hard to retain their competency in their working languges, and it is not that natives simply are born with a high level of proficiency in their language which they retain till the end. And any agency blindly selecting natives for a translation job without checking out all these details, such as the level of competency the native retains, whether he lives in his native area or not, and if not to what extend he maintains a living contact with his native area, are critically important for ascertaining the competence of a native translator for a particular job.
If an agency is prepared to go to this lengths to verify the native's competency, it would be only a small step for it to also similarly verify the competency of a non-native. So this in a way cuts your argument that verifying non-native competency would be time-consuming, costly and impractical.
In fact that was exactly what was being argued all along, that agencies need to more rigorously check their translators's competency, irrespective of them being native or non-native.
We are all professionals and we take the necessary measures to keep up-to-date with our language and the rest. The same could be said for translators who live in their native country: they have to keep up-to-date with their passive language. This is our job.
Do you also think that good agencies don't take the necessary steps to verify this? You are very naïve if you think in these terms or you work for rubbish ones.
And how do you keep up with your passive language? We are all in the same boat. At the end of the day, good companies have chosen specific criteria and there is a reason for it. If you disapprove, it's up to you to raise awareness. You still haven't showed me how you are going to accomplish this, apart from whingeing about Proz's natives-only button... I suggest you set up a dedicated website so you can spread your gospel... write a blog, set up a group on Facebook. I'm sure you'll have plenty of fans.
Edited for typos...
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:41 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:07
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | And what makes you think that non-natives don't look after their skills? | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
True professionals look after their skills, it's their job. So, please, stop being so patronising, thinking you know it all.
May be you harbour the notion that non-native translators are not professionals and they don't look after their skills. Otherwise you wouldn't make this statement.
Clearly the patroniser sits on the other side of the court.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:49 GMT]
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