| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | | You missed my point | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
we are talking about professional translators, not your friends or a Polish woman you happen to know... as a professional, you make sure this doesn't happen. It's part of your job.
My point was that the local language keeps changing, we can't stop it this process.
However the very same tools (TV, Internet) that nowadays help preventing a native speaker overseas from getting language-wise 'obsolete' may be used by a keen professional translator to hone their skills in a non-native language.
Now and then I team up with Brazilian professional translators who have been living in the USA for decades. Technically, they are native speakers of PT, not EN. Though for the aforementioned reasons the difference is tapering away, I used to prefer these to translate/proofread into EN, than native Americans, also professional translators, who have been living in Brazil for about the same period of time.
My point is that globalization and technology are gradually ironing out the striking difference that existed between native and non-native translators. Of course, this is privy to those professionals who strive to use such resources for this purpose.
This poses a new challenge to translation outsourcers: Instead of merely screening native and non-native speakers, they'll have to check their location, and whether they bothered to do regular maintenance on their target language skills. A sign of the times.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
we are talking about professional translators, not your friends or a Polish woman you happen to know... as a professional, you make sure this doesn't happen. It's part of your job.
My point was that the local language keeps changing, we can't stop it this process.
However the very same tools (TV, Internet) that nowadays help preventing a native speaker overseas from getting language-wise 'obsolete' may be used by a keen professional translator to hone their skills in a non-native language.
Now and then I team up with Brazilian professional translators who have been living in the USA for decades. Technically, they are native speakers of PT, not EN. Though for the aforementioned reasons the difference is tapering away, I used to prefer these to translate/proofread into EN, than native Americans, also professional translators, who have been living in Brazil for about the same period of time.
My point is that globalization and technology are gradually ironing out the striking difference that existed between native and non-native translators. Of course, this is privy to those professionals who strive to use such resources for this purpose.
This poses a new challenge to translation outsourcers: Instead of merely screening native and non-native speakers, they'll have to check their location, and whether they bothered to do regular maintenance on their target language skills. A sign of the times.
I got your point, now...
| | | | Lincoln Hui 
Hong Kong
Local time: 22:53
Member
Chinese to English
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| Circular logic | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
that professional natives, in most cases, are more proficient than non-natives. The proof? The market. Dispute.
Erm, A because B because A? That is the definition of circular logic.
Not to say that the conclusion must necessarily be wrong, but just because the conclusion is correct does not mean that the process used to reach that is.
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Lincoln Hui wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
that professional natives, in most cases, are more proficient than non-natives. The proof? The market. Dispute.
Erm, A because B because A? That is the definition of circular logic.
Not to say that the conclusion must necessarily be wrong, but just because the conclusion is correct does not mean that the process used to reach that is.
so, what's wrong with the process? And how do you put it right, if wrong?
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 20:23
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
However the very same tools (TV, Internet) that nowadays help preventing a native speaker overseas from getting language-wise 'obsolete' may be used by a keen professional translator to hone their skills in a non-native language.
.
.
.
My point is that globalization and technology are gradually ironing out the striking difference that existed between native and non-native translators. Of course, this is privy to those professionals who strive to use such resources for this purpose.
This poses a new challenge to translation outsourcers: Instead of merely screening native and non-native speakers, they'll have to check their location, and whether they bothered to do regular maintenance on their target language skills. A sign of the times.
Never read anything more insightful than those words in this whole long thread.
Jose, you are spot on.
If a native can arrest attrition of his competency in his native language while living out of his native area using modern media, there is nothing to prevent a non-native from acquiring high level proficiency in his working language(s) using the same media.
The bottom-line is, the line dividing native proficiency and non-native proficiency is a thin, almost imaginary, line.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 11:38 GMT]
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The bottom-line is, the line dividing native proficiency and non-native proficiency is a thin, almost imaginary, line.
you need to rephrase: the line dividing native proficiency and non-native proficiency is a thin, almost imaginary, line, but unfortunately in most case is a big, wide, fat one.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:53
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
you need to rephrase: the line dividing native proficiency and non-native proficiency is a thin, almost imaginary, line, but unfortunately in most case is a big, wide, fat one.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
you need to rephrase: the line dividing native proficiency and non-native proficiency is a thin, almost imaginary, line, but unfortunately in most case is a big, wide, fat one.
... as we are talking about advances in technology, the fixed-focus lens camera showing generally that there is "a line" won't work any more for translation outsourcers. They'll have to really FOCUS (on each translator) to see how sharp or fuzzy it really is in each specific case. Pun definitely intended.
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| No discriminarion but the client's choice | Jul 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Regarding another point that you have raised as to why other professional translation sites are not discussing this issue ad infinitum, the reason is quite simple and easy to grasp. This site discriminates against non-natives translating into their non-native proficient language. So there is a lot of pent up anger against this site with regard to this issue, which pours out into the forums at he drop of the hat.
If proz.com stops restricting access to jobs on the basis of native language, all this passion will dry up the very next day.
I wish that day would come soon.
This is not true. ProZ.com enables job posters to set the parameters of their jobs in accordance to their preferences, following the principle that 'the person with the need sets the parameters.' See point 6 in ProZ.com guiding principles.
When a job is posted, the outsourcer can select to set this field as 'required', 'preferred' or 'Any language'. I see no discrimination here.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | The real problem | Jul 29, 2013 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Regarding another point that you have raised as to why other professional translation sites are not discussing this issue ad infinitum, the reason is quite simple and easy to grasp. This site discriminates against non-natives translating into their non-native proficient language. So there is a lot of pent up anger against this site with regard to this issue, which pours out into the forums at he drop of the hat.
If proz.com stops restricting access to jobs on the basis of native language, all this passion will dry up the very next day.
I wish that day would come soon.
This is not true. ProZ.com enables job posters to set the parameters of their jobs in accordance to their preferences, following the principle that 'the person with the need sets the parameters.' See point 6 in ProZ.com guiding principles.
When a job is posted, the outsourcer can select to set this field as 'required', 'preferred' or 'Any language'. I see no discrimination here.
Regards,
Enrique
Hola, Enrique. Good to see you here!
The issue with Proz is that when an outsourcer demands "native speaker", which may be a rather vague concept depending on each one's background, any translator who hasn't stated so on their profile will be completely prevented from contacting that prospect.
For instance, once I saw a job post on Proz, EN into PT translation requiring a native speaker of Chinese. Of course I couldn't apply. I wouldn't want to apply for such a 'stupid' outsourcer job either, but that's not the case here. The point is that I had to volunteer bothering your staff with a support ticket, who had to waste time to advise the job poster that such an option would be unlikely to bear fruit.
While the present setup may be overprotective to outsourcers, so they won't be "bothered by those darn incompetent non-natives", it discards a few potentially good opportunities too.
IMHO a mutually suitable compromise could be - without identifying the outsourcer to the translator - to allow logged-in translators to send the job poster a message via the Proz system, for instance: "I am not a native in (target), however I am a specialist in (subject matter), and have significant experience in jobs exactly like this one of yours. Please have a look at my profile, perhaps I'd be a good option to fulfill your present need." Then it will be up to the job poster to initiate direct contact... or not!
I'd have a host of other examples, however I hope this one above gives a clear picture.
| | | | | Customers and their needs | Jul 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
So by preventing such translators from bidding on the job, proz.com is restricting the options for the outsourcer to a few less capable native translators.
Proz isn't preventing anything, the outsourcers are when THEY decide to stipulate it, and they have every right to do so.
By providing that tantalizing button to click, proz.com is abetting the outsourcers' decision (made out of ignorance or indifference) to exclude qualified non-native translators who are proficient in their target language from bidding for their jobs.
One of ProZ.com guiding principles states that the person with the need sets the parameters. Whether it be KudoZ, the forums or the jobs system, the person who has the need is given options for setting parameters and directing the flow of an exchange.
The feeling is that this approach, which may be the one most likely to ensure that needs are met, is appropriate for our collaborative community and service industry.
Many definitions of quality include the degree by which our products and services satisfy the needs of our customers. Assuming that the clients are ignorant or indifferent does not look like a good starting point.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 07:53
Norwegian to English
+ ...
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
"...some companies could give work to blond people only, men only, or people under the age of 30, let's say -- but they can't.
"The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) only forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states do have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination."
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
[Edited at 2013-07-29 18:28 GMT]
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The issue with Proz is that when an outsourcer demands "native speaker", which may be a rather vague concept depending on each one's background, any translator who hasn't stated so on their profile will be completely prevented from contacting that prospect.
¡Hola José!
ProZ.com provides options to job posters to let them focus on the service providers that are more likely to deliver what they need. Of course we deal with fallible humans and with qualitative parameters, so no filter can assure that all notified translators are fit for the job, or that none of the translators who are fit for the job are excluded.
Please note that this applies not only to the 'native language' field but to most filtering parameters, such as 'field of expertise'.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
For instance, once I saw a job post on Proz, EN into PT translation requiring a native speaker of Chinese. Of course I couldn't apply. I wouldn't want to apply for such a 'stupid' outsourcer job either, but that's not the case here. The point is that I had to volunteer bothering your staff with a support ticket, who had to waste time to advise the job poster that such an option would be unlikely to bear fruit.
Human errors by the poster are hard to deal with. Some consistency checks could be added. A translation center like the one donated and powered for Translators without Borders will be available soon for commercial translations. It could make sense to add this kind of checks there.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
While the present setup may be overprotective to outsourcers, so they won't be "bothered by those darn incompetent non-natives", it discards a few potentially good opportunities too.
IMHO a mutually suitable compromise could be - without identifying the outsourcer to the translator - to allow logged-in translators to send the job poster a message via the Proz system, for instance: "I am not a native in (target), however I am a specialist in (subject matter), and have significant experience in jobs exactly like this one of yours. Please have a look at my profile, perhaps I'd be a good option to fulfill your present need." Then it will be up to the job poster to initiate direct contact... or not!
I'd have a host of other examples, however I hope this one above gives a clear picture.
Again we have a compromise here, between simplicity of operation for the client who posts the job and the achieved results. When the client is interested in native speakers of the target languages but is willing to evaluate alternatives, he can select the "native language" as recommended. This option is available today.
Kind regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Some direction for Proz to improve further | Jul 29, 2013 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
Human errors by the poster are hard to deal with. Some consistency checks could be added. A translation center like the one donated and powered for Translators without Borders will be available soon for commercial translations. It could make sense to add this kind of checks there.
(snip)
Again we have a compromise here, between simplicity of operation for the client who posts the job and the achieved results. When the client is interested in native speakers of the target languages but is willing to evaluate alternatives, he can select the "native language" as recommended. This option is available today.
Enrique,
These might be good guidelines for your development team.
As I am a translator, and definitely not an outsourcer, I haven't got much experience in posting jobs on Proz.
Once I tried. I was getting too many video translation, subtitling and DVD authoring requests for both PT and ES. You know my command of ES, I can do anything with it except translating (and writing, of course). I was quite dissatisfied with the EN into ES translations I was getting from everywhere - in spite of my lame command of the language - so I tried to seek adequate partners via Proz.
I quickly realized that posting a job properly there was a much more difficult task than a plain reader of these posts could imagine.
To make it easier, as you have several "old" and "new" systems coexisting there, perhaps it would be worthwhile to develop a new job posting system that would, above all, show the outsourcer the consequences of each choice.
This could involve adding "information" buttons, or...
1. Keep a scoreboard, perhaps a pop-up window, that would show all the time how many candidates the job poster is addressing upon making each choice. So they start with the entire Proz population. Upon selecting the source language, the number drops down to those who match it. Then they select the target, it drops again, and so on. A warning should remind them that not all (actually a small fraction) would actually apply for the job.
2. That scoreboard could be made more sophisticated, breaking down into PRO-tags, members, and users.
3. Upon selecting a target language, the system could remind them on critical variants. For instance, in Portuguese it is critical to specify PT or BR variant. AFAIK Canadian English is US English spoken faster (at least in T'ron'o), hence usually not so critical. I wouldn't know whether there are any two ES-speaking countries sharing one same variant.
4. One critical moment would be when they set rates. If they set them too low, this would cause a visible and significant drop to the potential numbers, much more effective than merely telling them that 80% of all Prozians charge more.
5. When they require native speakers, after they have selected language pair AND specialty area, if they see the numbers drop too much, they might switch this to "desirable" instead of a must-have requirement.
6. The same applies to specific software, related or unrelated to the job at hand.
... and so on. Perhaps just adding the scoreboard of potential applicants to the present system would be enough. This could solve a lot of problems on both sides.
| | | | | native speaker option | Jul 29, 2013 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
Again we have a compromise here, between simplicity of operation for the client who posts the job and the achieved results. When the client is interested in native speakers of the target languages but is willing to evaluate alternatives, he can select the "native language" as recommended. This option is available today.
Kind regards,
Enrique
As Enrique clearly states, outsources can and should be able to choose who they want.
Point is, if native speakers are available, then outsourcers should be able to choose native speakers instead of non-native speakers.
Bernhard
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