| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
|
|---|
| | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
Hebrew to English
| Then you need to start a new thread.... | Jul 30, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
And I understand it is not easy at proz.com to get your second language verified.
So there is still scope for change in this site, and 100s of pages of discussion is not exactly in vain.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 08:13 GMT]
"Should second native languages be verified?" ... .... oh wait
| | | |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Ty (and also G.), you forget that the Getting It Right is aimed at outsourcers (those wanting translation services). The Code is for us translators. Therefore, what is said in the Code is what applies to us translators.
By taking up the outsourcer's cause, you are unwittingly fighting someone else's battle.
but this is the industry's reality, Bala, isn't it? It's a bit disingenuous not to take it into account. I've said this all along: what you are saying is fine in theory (and it's fine by me too, if you don't push it to the extreme), but you need to confront yourself with the people who, ultimately, will select you as a service provider. I understand your "crusade" towards changing the perception in the industry, but you have tools and it's up to you to demonstrate the opposite.
If you really care about being able to translate both ways, declare two native languages and get yourself certified in both, even if it's not that easy. Starting endless threads about the unfairness of this and that will definitely raise awareness, but it does nothing in concrete to change your status or other people's status in the same situation.
www.non-natives.com is still available, funnily enough*...
* I hope you don't mind my little joke...
Edited for lack of coffee...
[Edited at 2013-07-30 08:33 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 13:51
French to English
| With you all the way | Jul 30, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Starting endless threads about the unfairness of this and that will definitely raise awareness, but it does nothing in concrete to change your status or other people's status in your situation.
Edited for lack of coffee... [Edited at 2013-07-30 08:30 GMT]
With you all the way Giovanni, (as you might see if you look back at what I posted this weekend, only approved on Monday).
Just one minor quibble with the quote above (once a proofreader, always a proofreader ), I would replace "starting" with "hijacking" or "monopolising"
| | | | | Language attrition happens, whether you want it,or not | Jul 30, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
we are talking about professional translators, not your friends or a Polish woman you happen to know... as a professional, you make sure this doesn't happen. It's part of your job.
Perhaps in you live an ethnic community, speak only the language of your parents (if they spoke the same language as you), watch TV only in that language and never learn another language -- the attrition may be not as visible, but it would still manifest itself in one way or another. You may start composing phrases typical or Spanglish or Danglish, or any other X-english.
| | |
|
|
|
| It depends in which state | Jul 30, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
"...some companies could give work to blond people only, men only, or people under the age of 30, let's say -- but they can't.
"The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) only forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states do have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination."
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm[Edited at 2013-07-29 18:28 GMT]
I see you are not aware of local laws -- it is 18 up in New York State. The age discrimination laws very State by state, although the federal law sets 40 as the starting point.
| | | |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
we are talking about professional translators, not your friends or a Polish woman you happen to know... as a professional, you make sure this doesn't happen. It's part of your job.
Perhaps in you live an ethnic community, speak only the language of your parents (if they spoke the same language as you), watch TV only in that language and never learn another language -- the attrition may be not as visible, but it would still manifest itself in one way or another. You may start composing phrases typical or Spanglish or Danglish, or any other X-english.
if you do your job properly... people who do that are just unprofessional and don't put enough effort into keeping their language skills up-to-date, insuring there is no attrition. This is a very fundamental part of our job. It's hard work - especially if you live far away from your country of origin - but it's imperative it's accomplished. Otherwise you'll get nowhere in the profession.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 10:36 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
Hebrew to English
| What do the ATA say about language attrition? | Jul 30, 2013 |
Here's what they say:
Do translators living abroad lose touch with their native tongue?
At the bottom end of the market, perhaps. But expert linguists keep their language skills up wherever they live.
| | | | | They cannot require stating anything about native languages -- perhaps | Jul 30, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I found this code of conduct for translators followed by ATA. It is interesting to note that it does not talk of native language, only of native level proficiency.
The ATA better explains its stance in their "Getting it Right" publication, available as a download from their website:
Professional translators work into their native language...
As a translation buyer, you may not be aware of this, but a translator who flouts this basic rule is likely to be ignorant of other important quality issues as well. OK, there are exceptions. But not many. If your supplier claims to be one of them, ask to see something
he or she has done.
http://www.atanet.org/docs/Getting_it_right.pdf
just something on a voluntary basis -- that translators provide on a voluntary basis, not limited to any number of languages or circumstances, because thy understand that anything else would be against the US Constitution. Such things may be allowed in the EU --I don't know their law that well, but not the US.
Also don't take the ATA to be any kind of God-like authority on translation -- they are just an association, that happens to be called American-- basically a commercial body, administering tests for $500.
And the problem here is not whether native translators should be hired or not, versus non-native. In most cases really the translators who translate into their best language, L1 in the case of the people who have been living in one country for most of their lives, or dominant language in other cases (which is also native, if the translation industry insists on using this vague term) will be chosen, because they have definitely advantages over other users of the source language (at leas in terms of style), however, this should not be the only criterium for choosing translators, because many other factors count. Some non-native translators in medical, or technical translation,especially, may be very good as well. Also, I don't think anyone should be barred from quoting, even if they don't get the job -- unless some movie company really needs a voiceover person with a Texan accent, let's say 100% authentic. This is the only legitimate reason why an agency may want to require native X, or 100% authentic variety. This option is definitely being severely abused by clients -- they mostly press the button automatically -- almost all the time, from what I have seen.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 11:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-07-30 11:49 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
Hebrew to English
| No time to respond to all of it....... | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
just something on a voluntary basis -- that translators provide on a voluntary basis, not limited to any number of languages or circumstances, because thy understand that anything else would be against the US Constitution. Such things may be allowed in the EU --I don't know their law that well, but not the US.
I'll leave the legal stuff to someone else...
Also don't take the ATA to be any kind of God-like authority on translation -- they are just an association, that happens to be called American-- basically a commercial body, administering tests for $500.
It's a recognized and highly respected professional body, our profession would be all the poorer without them.
criterium for choosing translators
criterium:
a one-day bicycle race on a circuit road course
It's Greek, not Latin, singular: criterion, plural: criteria
Ignore what wiktionary tells you about it being an alternative form for criterion. It isn't.
Also I don't think anyone should be barred from quoting, even if they don't get the job
They're not. As has been explained in this thread.
Gotta run, deadlines....
| | | | | One criterium -- the only criterium -- all the criteria | Jul 30, 2013 |
I am not sure, what you are pointing at, Ty -- I had Latin for eight years, and although I wish my Latin were better, I know all the basics.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
Hebrew to English
| My point is that.... | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I am not sure, what you are pointing at, Ty -- I had Latin for eight years, and although I wish my Latin were better, I know all the basics.
...the etymology of that word in English is Greek, not Latin, it therefore uses the Greek inflections. "Criterium" as a singular for "criteria" is not accepted in the main British or AMERICAN dictionaries. (Its use is therefore non-standard at best, erroneous at worst).
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:21
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | ATA too has double loyalties | Jul 30, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote (about ATA):
It's a recognized and highly respected professional body, our profession would be all the poorer without them.
Like this site, ATA too has two main clients, outsourcers and translators. So the same issues of trying to please two masters with conflicting interests equally affects the ATA. What this means is, we have to be discerning about what ATA says, and to please whom it is saying that.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 11:58 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
| I don't want to argue, of course | Jul 30, 2013 |
Criterion might be the dictionary word, plus the word is more often used in the plural -- criteria. I am pretty sure I have seen it in the Latin form in legal writing many times, where a lot of terms are in pure Latin, anyhow --or I might have overdone my Latin. No other explanation. Some sources say it is an alternative form -- but I am not really sure. It can be also just language interference form Latin. It is criterium or something similar in many languages.
[Edited at 2013-07-30... See more Criterion might be the dictionary word, plus the word is more often used in the plural -- criteria. I am pretty sure I have seen it in the Latin form in legal writing many times, where a lot of terms are in pure Latin, anyhow --or I might have overdone my Latin. No other explanation. Some sources say it is an alternative form -- but I am not really sure. It can be also just language interference form Latin. It is criterium or something similar in many languages.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 12:22 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Self-clarification: it's not a self-claim | Jul 30, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I'm somewhat bemused that after last summer's mammoth thread you aren't aware that these are already a possibility. I hope José won't mind if I use him as an example, since he has several times openly declared and discussed the fact that he is not a native speaker of English. Nevertheless, he believes his proficiency to be such that he can count himself as one. José therefore declares that he has two native languages (Portuguese and English) and in turn qualifies for any jobs where the client requires an English native speaker. If that's what you want, the site needn't change a thing.
I'd like to clarify this situation, since I used this fact as evidence for Proz to grant me the privilege of having two "native" languages on my profile.
I am a sworn translator/interpreter between English and Portuguese, licensed by the Brazilian government. There are about 3,000 like me, certified for an array of 22 languages. A few are licensed for 2, fewer for 3 languages, however these are indeed very rare. Details on how it works are available on these pages.
I've come to realize that this Brazilian law, which will celebrate its 70th anniversary next October, is the strictest such regulation worldwide. Spain has a similar law, however not as pervasive as the Brazilian one.
In a nutshell, the most relevant points relevant here are that:
a) if such a sworn translator is requested to translate from Portuguese into the foreign language they have been licensed in, provided some other requirements (i.e. statutory rates & turnaround time) are met, they are forbidden by law to decline the assignment; and
b) Brazilian Foreign Affairs authorities will formally endorse such sworn translations for any other country.
On a more informal level, I was told that at least one Canadian professional accreditation board requires a foreign applicant's academic records and other related educational certificates to have been translated by an official translator certified by the country where they were issued, hence the idea is not so farfetched.
Considering my personal case, long ago I used to think that nobody should translate from a language they were unable to translate into. I don't care whether this is true or not, however it it served its purpose for a very important decision in my life: tough I studied them to some extent, and speak both Italian and French, I would not (and still don't) translate them professionally. The reason is that I am fully aware that I'd have to study more, respectively 3 years (IT) and 4 years (FR) to begin translating into them. So I chose to focus on English, and made sure I was fully prepared for the job according to my own 'standards'.
Meanwhile I see many people translating from English into Portuguese with a lesser command of EN than I have of IT/FR, an some of these occasionally venture translating into English as well. Hence I can empathize with people/organizations who obstreperously advocate for "natives only". It's a safety contrivance, perhaps like an explosives manufacturing plan would avoid hiring a former smoker, fearing a potential relapse.
Quite frankly, I didn't translate too often into English before 2000, when I was appointed as a gov't-licensed sworn translator. My major work in that direction was translating my own book, and yet I had it proofread by a Canadian professional. (As he didn't find much to change there, it was a promising omen.)
Sworn translations into English came in gradually, and I developed practice in doing it "in reverse gear". Over a few years, it became no longer so. I became more like one of those bidirectional trams having all the controls on both ends; they have no practical forward and reverse, it's a matter of going East or West, North or South.
As English is a more concise language than Portuguese, my translation speed records are mostly from PT into EN, since it statistically involves up to 20% less keystrokes, not counting the accents. My quality is uncompromising, that's not the variable here. So the tram - as expected - will travel at the same speed either way.
As I said often on this thread, an individual's specific background may mitigate the relevance of this native-only requirement, yet I reckon that having more than one native language is rather the exception than the rule.
One interesting exception was the late uncle of a friend of mine, a red dot far away from the curve. The man spoke more than a dozen languages better - in spite of a slight accent - and with far more erudition than any well-educated native speaker of any of them. That had been his lifetime hobby: languages. He was born in Russia, and moved to Brazil in his teen years. Traveled a lot, worldwide. His library - which I visited a few times - resembled Professor Higgins' in any expensive production of My Fair Lady, and he had read most of it, at least once. Yet, he never translated anything, he was a lawyer.
So the two native languages on my profile is merely to circumvent a general rule devised by Proz and enforced by job posters (who have the option to use it or not), in order to comply with Brazilian law. Anything else was consequential.
As a "red spot" on the chart, I only fear three things:
a) opening the gates on Proz for people to self-claim as native speakers of any language known to mankind;
b) translators who defend the native-only restriction so aggressively, that I suspect they have absolutely no other quality to offer for translation than the fact of being legitimate native speakers;
c) translation outsourcers who disregard subject area specialization, considering native speaker as the most essential - and often the only - requirement for a translator.
| | | | | No job restrictions so far for 'unverified' native language | Jul 30, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
While anyone can declare two languages as native, the moment you do it, both your languages will get unverified. And I understand it is not easy at proz.com to get your second language verified.
ProZ.com job restrictions are based on declared native language.
You can declare one or two native languages.
ProZ.com plans to verify native languages in the future, but no programs or deadlines are in place yet.
In preparation for these plans, the native languages of members who declared only one NL appear 'verified' while in all other cases (non-members and/or double native languages) they look 'unverified', but this difference has no impact on job restrictions.
This applies both to jobs posted in the site and to directory searches.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Ten common myths about translation quality | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
