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| | Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Forbidden term | Jul 30, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
The fact that Lilian thinks the term "native language" is vague was well established in the mammoth thread. As I recall, not many people agreed with her then either. And pretty much everyone agreed there's not a hope in hell of "banning" it.
But Lilian has assured us that it has already been banned in NY in "formal situations".
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
This is why it is strictly forbidden in NY to use this term in any formal situations.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Hebrew to English
| Prove it. Part 2 | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
You cannot require that anybody spoke any language from childhood, and they had learned it in their childhood.
Prove it.
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
whether it is legally safe for you to request that a given language is the translator’s “native language” to hire him or her as a translator. Probably it is (reasonable business reason)
| | | | | Unfortunately this is the same, very simplistic approach toalngauges | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:53 GMT]
The reality is that usually everyone knows what their native language is - it's the one they grew up with, were taught in school with, and have complete control over (the last part can of course be lost somewhat if you stop speaking it but if you were to pick it up again after you had spoken it throughout your childhood and teenage years, you will probably soon speak it again better than any other languages you ever learned).
A native language is "usually" bound to a certain region or country where the language is the or one of the official languages.
If someone was born and/or educated throughout their childhood and teenage years in Poland, it's fair to say that Polish is their native language.
If two or more languages are official languages in a region or country, and you were born there and educated ..., then it is possible you have two native languages if indeed everyone in this region speaks both languages, is taught at school using both languages, uses both languages in their social surroundings throughout their childhood and teenage years .....
I have no problem defining my native language as German.
So, Lilian, can you tell me now what your native language is?
Bernhard
If you were born in New York City, grew up there, went to school there, and had friends and family there and had contact with the "outside" world, your native language is most likely (US) English.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 19:12 GMT]
That certain companies exhibit. It is not as simple. It much harder for me to even interpret into Polish, or write something more complex, although I spoke it quite often in my childhood not all the time, of course having come from a multilingual family, in which no one except my mother spoke Polish as a native language. It is not as simple as you portray it .I don't want to offend you in any way, but the approach is really simplistic. It just shows that you are not aware of the multicultural phenomena characteristic for people who lived in various countries and are of mixed descent. No, unfortunately you are wrong with your categorizations in my case.
English is definitely my dominant language, and thus native, if you like this term. Polish is my L1 -- that went through slight attrition due to lack of exposure and significant changes within the language over the last quarter of a century. I understand Russian, and perhaps even speak it, on a native level as well. If you went by ethnic languages only, probably German and Lithuanian should be my native languages, but I don't know them on a level which would allow me to claim them as native, or perhaps yet another language. Tolkien thought he was a native speaker of Middle English and as a very wise man and linguist he probably had reasons to claim so.
I still really don't understand what your real agenda is. You can translate into English, Bernhard. Your English is very good. I remember you had all your university education in English, so I think there would not be too many people better than you in the German to English pair. And your native language is whatever you consider native -- in your case Austrian German.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 20:01 GMT]
| | | | | Thousands of linguists think that, and more reasonable people | Jul 30, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
The fact that Lilian thinks the term "native language" is vague was well established in the mammoth thread. As I recall, not many people agreed with her then either. And pretty much everyone agreed there's not a hope in hell of "banning" it.
not just me. Do you consider Scottish English native English, or Gordie, and what difference to translation could it make, if you did.? What if I did the translation in East New York English -- I could do that. Would that be something desirable? It is a total nonsense to state any native requirements, in any type oif circumstances other than movies, or theatre, where you need certain characters. You are supposed to translate into quite neutral English, unless it is fiction. It is even a more absurd requirement in medical and technical translation.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 20:02 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Native language requirements | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a total nonsense to state any native requirements, in any type oif circumstances other than movies, or theatre, where you need certain characters.
Do you make it clear to your clients that you consider any native language requirements nonsense?
| | | | | regarding choosing native speakers | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
because in this sense it becomes the source of prejudice and discrimination, and seems to be totally senseless and without merit. As an all-embracing, vague term, it still stands a chance.
Example:
After having checked other factors such as fields of expertise, years as a translator, etc,. and found them to be pretty equal, you have to make a choice between these two for a translation of a marketing text, from English into French:
Translator A: native language: Italian (hasn't spoken it in 10 years, doesn't use it)
Lists:
First working language: French (claims it his "best" language)
Second working language: English (his "second-best" language")
Translator B:
Lists:
Native language: French
Second working language: English (very advanced)
Granted, many clients will first check "native language speaker" and then look at the other credentials, but it might depend on the type of text and be justified.
Many clients will in addition look at sample translations. I don't believe in the argument that native speakers are preferred only because they are native speakers.
Often clients will compare many native speakers' credentials before they decide, and, yes, sometimes "native language"might not even be the important criterion they're looking for.
I just don't believe that native language as one of many factors should not be considered a valuable aspect of any translator's profile, or even banned?!
If I work in my native language, I should be able to say so.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2013-07-30 22:02 GMT]
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 20:39
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Native language | Jul 30, 2013 |
For the purposes of translation, you only usually have one native language. If you cannot firmly state that your native language is _________, it is far more likely that you don't have a native language than you have two or three or four of them.
| | | | | does everyone have a native language? | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:53 GMT]
I certainly don't mean to offend you in any way and I understand that for some of us, it's not as easy to define things in relation to our individual backgrounds. It is sometimes even possible that one has no native language although I find that hard to believe. Even you say that
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
... It much harder for me to even interpret into Polish, or write something more complex, although I spoke it quite often in my childhood not all the time, of course having come from a multilingual family, in which no one except my mother spoke Polish as a native language. ...
English is definitely my dominant language, and thus native, if you like this term. Polish is my L1 -- that went through slight attrition due to lack of exposure and significant changes within the language over the last quarter of a century. I understand Russian, and perhaps even speak it, on a native level as well.
Native language in itself doesn't necessarily mean "best language" although if you are working as a translator and list your native language, it is assumed that that is indeed your best language.
"Best language" per se doesn't equate "native language". I agree it seems like a conundrum.
But it is only one if you don't use your native language as a translator.
Let me ask you this if you don't mind: which language, besides English, do you feel most comfortable in, thinking, reading, speaking and writing? I would venture to say that it could be considered your (or one of your) native languages, even though you might feel much more comfortable in English.
I argued at some other place that it is quite possible though rare that a person does not have any native language as we understand it in the translation sector.
My agenda is mainly with people who claim a language as their native language if it isn't.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 21:08 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I argued at some other place that it is quite possible though rare that a person does not have any native language as we understand it in the translation sector.
It is indeed possible. I have seen this many times and I believe, without causing offence I hope, that Lilian is one of them.
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Michele Fauble wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a total nonsense to state any native requirements, in any type oif circumstances other than movies, or theatre, where you need certain characters.
Do you make it clear to your clients that you consider any native language requirements nonsense?
Take it or leave. They know me well usually, my old clients and know what to expect. Not only from translation, but otherwise. I personally don't know any Polish to English American born translator, just people who came here as children or teenagers, some even later. I know one Russian interpreter -- his English is great BE, but it is very hard to understand his Russian. I do, but most people don't.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 21:25 GMT]
| | | | | Isn't the truth the only criterium in discussions like that? | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is not about defending versus not depending -- what do you do in the case of rare languages, like Hungarian,let's say, Latvian, Finnish -- who is supposed to translate the texts into English. How many non-native speakers actually speak those languages fluently, to be able to translate from them. Not too many, I would think.
The mother tongue thing is a cliche in many contexts -- what does it actually mean in reference to translation. It is definitely not your L1 which you spoke until the age of ten.
[Edited at 2013-07-20 17:12 GMT]
This poster uses three terms for the same type of language capability - native language, mother tongue and L1.
The last paragraph of the above is unclear to me. - Since when is the mother tongue "definitely not" one`s "L1 which" one "spoke until the age of ten"?
The risk that a non-native speaker of the source language may miss some nuances of the source may always be there - depending on his knowledge of that source language. - But there are not that many secret and hidden informations underneath a source text - as long as it not proverbial, poetic or similar.
But the risk that a non-native speaker of the target misses out already on elementary spelling and grammar, not to speak of idiomatics and, terminological and stylistic nuances, is a permanent and pervasive feature in translations produced by non-native speakers of the target language.
The qualtiy of native speaker competence is not an ethnic matter. - But it is absolutely wrong to say that someone who has graduated as a foreigner from a higher education institution of another country will then speak the language of that country like a real native or L1 or LA speaker.
And to be very clear about this. - This matter is not one of guess work or political correctness convictions. It can be checked - The linguistical quality of a translation can always be checked by any native speaker of the target language. - completely independently from the source text. Just the linguistical correctness and quality of the target language.
For the quality of the target language it is completely irrevelant whether the translator has captured all the nuances of the source. That of course is relevant for the quality of the translation. But the linguistic quality of the target text is independent from the exactitude of its content rendering.
A translation in defective or even broken and buungled target language is not better than machine translation - even if it renders the source content better. As long as a translations in flawed target language have not been directly asked or even agreed on from the start it will be unacceptable as a professional translation.
Of course it is always possible that people work in teams with one or more non-native speakers of the target language preparing drafts or broken translations and native speakers then working those over and producing an acceptable target text. - But that only only native speakers of the target language can guarantee directly, by their own work, a professional translation is not a myth but the absolute and indispensable reality in the trade. -
| | | | | If you agree that native language isn't always the best language | Jul 30, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is a term that has multiple meanings -- all quite vague. If you make the question more precise, then perhaps I could answer it, but I doubt the term can be turned into a precise term.
The native language term used by outsources is a totally abstract concept that does not exist in the reality.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 18:53 GMT]
I certainly don't mean to offend you in any way and I understand that for some of us, it's not as easy to define things in relation to our individual backgrounds. It is sometimes even possible that one has no native language although I find that hard to believe. Even you say that
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
... It much harder for me to even interpret into Polish, or write something more complex, although I spoke it quite often in my childhood not all the time, of course having come from a multilingual family, in which no one except my mother spoke Polish as a native language. ...
English is definitely my dominant language, and thus native, if you like this term. Polish is my L1 -- that went through slight attrition due to lack of exposure and significant changes within the language over the last quarter of a century. I understand Russian, and perhaps even speak it, on a native level as well.
Native language in itself doesn't necessarily mean "best language" although if you are working as a translator and list your native language, it is assumed that that is indeed your best language.
"Best language" per se doesn't equate "native language". I agree it seems like a conundrum.
But it is only one if you don't use your native language as a translator.
Let me ask you this if you don't mind: which language, besides English, do you feel most comfortable in, thinking, reading, speaking and writing? I would venture to say that it could be considered your (or one of your) native languages, even though you might feel much more comfortable in English.
I argued at some other place that it is quite possible though rare that a person does not have any native language as we understand it in the translation sector.
My agenda is mainly with people who claim a language as their native language if it isn't. [Edited at 2013-07-30 21:08 GMT]
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| I think actually you might be one of them as well, Lisa. | Jul 30, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I argued at some other place that it is quite possible though rare that a person does not have any native language as we understand it in the translation sector.
It is indeed possible. I have seen this many times and I believe, without causing offence I hope, that Lilian is one of them.
You have lived in an English speaking country only for five years from what I remember, and my father's native language as Lithuanian, and although I speak it quite ell, I would not claim it as my native for any serious purposes. I cannot tell by your writing, without any offense, that it is authentic British English, although it is very good English. I can tell Ty's, right away, but not a yours.
[Edited at 2013-07-30 21:23 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Hebrew to English
| Once more with feeling... | Jul 30, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
a sign of ethnic belonging, rather than proficiency..... and also I think there should not be any limitations in quoting
Native language is not inextricably linked with ethnicity aaaaand there aren't any limitations in quoting if you meet the criteria (plural).
Fin.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Portuguese to English
+ ...
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
You have lived in an English speaking country only for five years from what I remember, and my father's native language as Lithuanian, and although I speak it quite ell, I would not claim it as my native for any serious purposes. I cannot tell by your writing, without any offense, that it is authentic British English, although it is very good English. I can tell Ty's, right away, but not a yours.
I'm sorry if you're having trouble understanding me. I'm not sure where the "five years" comes from either. Glad to undergo verification - if it should ever happen
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