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| | | If they don't get enough exposure, go to bad schools | Aug 8, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
So you believe that the people who were born in the US to Spanish-speaking parents and spoke mostly Spanish at home for the first 5 or 6 years are native speakers of Spanish, the same way as the children of Turkish-speaking parents, even if born in Germany, are native speakers of Turkish, only? You mentioned that there might be exceptions, of course, depending on their education and social status.
Yes. That doesn't preclude them from being able to later on become native speakers of English or German, as long as they are exposed to it during a certain age. But if they are not exposed to German or English, how could they pick it up? [Edited at 2013-08-08 15:47 GMT]
and spend most of their childhood in streets -- they stay Spanish and Turkish native speakers for life, even if they have only lived in Harlem, or Hanover?
What about Silesian people -- what is their native language? What about Joseph Stalin -- would you consider him a native speaker of Russian? By the way my Russian is much better than his.
Wouldn't it be weird if an interpreter was required to have a better accent than the Governor of California (ex-governor), although most do. I don't mind his accent, it is Ok, but this is the truth, really.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 16:00 GMT]
| | | | | you keep quoting exceptions... | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
So you believe that the people who were born in the US to Spanish-speaking parents and spoke mostly Spanish at home for the first 5 or 6 years are native speakers of Spanish, the same way as the children of Turkish-speaking parents, even if born in Germany, are native speakers of Turkish, only? You mentioned that there might be exceptions, of course, depending on their education and social status.
Yes. That doesn't preclude them from being able to later on become native speakers of English or German, as long as they are exposed to it during a certain age. But if they are not exposed to German or English, how could they pick it up? [Edited at 2013-08-08 15:47 GMT]
and spend most of their childhood in streets -- they stay Spanish and Turkish native speakers for life, even if they have only lived in Harlem, or Hanover?
What about Silesian people -- what is their native language? What about Joseph Stalin -- would you consider him a native speaker of Russian? By the way my Russian is much better than his.
Wouldn't it be weird if an interpreter was required to have a better accent than the Governor of California (ex-governor), although most do. I don't mind his accent, it is Ok, but this is the truth, really. [Edited at 2013-08-08 16:00 GMT]
to make your point... I'm afraid, it doesn't work that way. They are exceptions.
| | | | | exposure is key II | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Yes. That doesn't preclude them from being able to later on become native speakers of English or German, as long as they are exposed to it during a certain age. But if they are not exposed to German or English, how could they pick it up?
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:47 GMT]
and spend most of their childhood in streets -- they stay Spanish and Turkish native speakers for life, even if they have only lived in Harlem, or Hanover?
What about Silesian people -- what is their native language? What about Joseph Stalin -- would you consider him a native speaker of Russian? By the way my Russian is much better than his.
What else do you want me to say Lilian?
... That doesn't preclude them from being able to later on become native speakers of X or Y, as long as they are exposed to it during a certain age. But if they are not exposed to X or Y, how could they pick it up?
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Hebrew to English
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
What about Joseph Stalin -- would you consider him a native speaker of Russian? By the way my Russian is much better than his.
Why would anyone consider Stalin a native Russian speaker? It's a well known fact his native language was Georgian. He didn't even start learning Russian until he was about 9 years old and never shed his thick Georgian accent. These facts are well documented.
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| I would not be so sure about that. These are just assumptions. | Aug 8, 2013 |
He spoke with a heavy accent, but I think he most likely considered Russian his native language, plus most average people have usually no clue even that he spoke with an accent (people other than the ones from the ex-Soviet Union).
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 05:35
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Native language | Aug 8, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Like the guys over at Language Log, who use the term all the time.
The term native language is also used extensively by educators.
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The teachers may only ask the children: what language do you speak at home, if they want to help them or hire an interpreter to work with them, but they are not allowed to ask anything about "native language".
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Hebrew to English
| Every time you say "not in NY" | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The teachers may only ask the children: what language do you speak at home, if they want to help them or hire an interpreter to work with them, but they are not allowed to ask anything about "native language".
...or "illegal"...God kills a kitten. Their deaths are on your hands!
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 05:35
Norwegian to English
+ ...
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The teachers may only ask the children: what language do you speak at home, if they want to help them or hire an interpreter to work with them, but they are not allowed to ask anything about "native language".
Regardless of how that question is formulated in the classroom, the term native language is used extensively among educators. Try googling 'native language assessments' or 'Spanish for native speakers' for examples.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 16:53 GMT]
| | | | | No God would not do that. | Aug 8, 2013 |
He loves animals.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Hebrew to English
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The teachers may only ask the children: what language do you speak at home, if they want to help them or hire an interpreter to work with them, but they are not allowed to ask anything about "native language".
See link:
http://schools.nyc.gov/Academics/ELL/StandardsCurriculum/default.htm
"that strengthen students’ native language development and content knowledge while they transition to English. These programs must include the necessary English as a Second Language (ESL), Native Language Arts (NLA), and English Language Arts (ELA) instructional units according to state law.
We also provide English as a Second Language (ESL) programs that use various strategies, sometimes with native language support, so students develop language and content knowledge in English"
Courtesy of The New York City Department of Education
[Edited at 2013-08-08 16:59 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Yep, clearly not THAT illegal to mention it in schools in NY | Aug 8, 2013 |
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| It maybe referred to as native language, or the language spoken at home | Aug 8, 2013 |
in the research materials, or teaching materials, but they would not refer to it as native when speaking to the children, to their parents or to anyone else. That the children speak some L1 at home originally does not mean that in a few years all of them will be bilingual, or native speakers of English. There is no such a thing as a non-native English high school-graduate. If your English is good enough to graduate from high school, you are a native speaker.
I just wish this word t... See more in the research materials, or teaching materials, but they would not refer to it as native when speaking to the children, to their parents or to anyone else. That the children speak some L1 at home originally does not mean that in a few years all of them will be bilingual, or native speakers of English. There is no such a thing as a non-native English high school-graduate. If your English is good enough to graduate from high school, you are a native speaker.
I just wish this word totally disappeared from the modern linguistic scene -- it causes nothing but misunderstandings, restrictions (including the restrictions in its use), and trouble. I think they should only use: first language, second language, third language, dominant language, official language, the language the person is most comfortable to speak, the language the person prefers to use in writing, etc., the language the person identifies with, the language of their ancestors -- if someone wants to mention that., the language they love the most.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 17:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Filter bonanza | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I think they should only use: first language, second language, third language, dominant language, official language, the language the person is most comfortable to speak, the language the person prefers to use in writing, etc., the language the person identifies with, the language of their ancestors -- if someone wants to mention that., the language they love the most.
The site would have to have a lot of filters to include that lot.
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All these alternatives to the term "native language"
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I just wish this word totally disappeared from the modern linguistic scene -- it causes nothing but misunderstandings, restrictions (including the restrictions in its use), and trouble. I think they should only use: first language, second language, third language, dominant language, official language, the language the person is most comfortable to speak, the language the person prefers to use in writing, etc., the language the person identifies with, the language of their ancestors -- if someone wants to mention that., the language they love the most.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 17:25 GMT]
are simply partial definitions of the same, except "second language, third language", which are, of course, the correct terms to define languages learnt after (or even during) acquisition of the first (strongest, native) language. Oh, and I personally might have problems with the last two: language of my ancestors=Welsh (which I don't speak); language I love most=French (in which I can barely string two sentences together although my passive knowledge is excellent).
See how easy it is to define native language?
Edited to include the word "partial".
[Edited at 2013-08-08 18:09 GMT]
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