B D Finch Sep 1, 2019:

@Nicky Please would you share with us the term you decided to use and enter it in the KOG.

B D Finch Aug 27, 2019:

Is this it? If this is your text http://www.thouars.fr/vah/musee/docs/depliant_maison.pdf then these are not proper arches. See photos on page 2 above the text "Côté cour, l’élément central de la façade est la tourelle d’escalier. A droite, l'entrée principale, très ouvragée, est surmontée d'un arc en accolade retombant sur des culots ornés de sculptures d’animaux et de personnages fantastiques (un griffon et un chien ailé). "

This is 15th century and looks more Tudor than Gothic revival.

B D Finch Aug 27, 2019:

@Ph-B OK, I've found your reference. Note that, a bit higher up the page, he writes "The point from which the arch rises from its vertical supports is known as the spring, or springing line." In the course of explaining things, he used different words to avoid repetition, which is considered good style in English.

Ph_B (X) Aug 27, 2019:

B D, Like you, I'm unable to use yesterday's link to the quote from EB, but if you do a search of the text I quoted, you should be able to access it. While I was looking for it, I also found this: "Arches, therefore, in the absence of piers, rested on thick and solid walls..." That's from A HISTORY OF ARCHITECTURE... by Prof. Banister Fletcher here: https://archive.org/stream/historyofarchite00flet/historyofa... (Nice facsimile with its original illustrations here: https://issuu.com/cristinadreifuss/docs/fletcher--banister--... For what it's worth, as they say, as the book was published in 1905.

Nicky Over (asker) Aug 27, 2019:

Please post your ideas as answers! So that I can choose an answer to grade, please post your ideas as answers.

kashew Aug 26, 2019:

I go with BDF for "springing from" whatever culots are in architectural EN

kashew Aug 26, 2019:

Plenty of pictorial examples https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accolade_(architecture)
then flip to the English.
HTH

B D Finch Aug 26, 2019:

@Ph_B I can't access your Encyclopaedia Britannica reference, but I don't think they made the best choice of words. I wouldn't worry about making the translation reflect the choice of "retombant" in French. The question is how the meaning is best expressed in English. As explained, the English way of expressing it is perhaps less accurate (with regard to physics) than the ST, but I still think that "springing from" is the best translation.

Ph_B (X) Aug 26, 2019:

physics (up or down?) I won't even think of talking about physics and I'm sure B D's right about where these forces come from and go to. But wouldn't that be the same in French? In other words, if the authors chose to use retomber sur and not, say, jaillir de, shouldn't the translation reflect that choice of words? I've also found : "Hence, the vertical supports, or posts, upon which an arch rests must be massive enough to buttress the thrust and conduct it into the foundation (as in Roman triumphal arches)." (https://www.britannica.com/technology/arch-architecture) Though not a specialist publication, I suppose Encyclopaedia Britannica can be relied on.

B D Finch Aug 26, 2019:

springing from I agree with Charles. As these are arches, "springing from" is better than "resting on", which is more appropriate for lintels. The spring point of an arch is where lateral forces are converted to vertical forces and conducted to the ground via vertical elements (columns or walls). The forces in question do operate downwards (given that is how gravity works), so the English expression is more about how the arch is constructed, or its visual appearance, than about the physics of it.

Ph_B (X) Aug 26, 2019:

movement + resting on "resting on" is definitely what it means and is included in retombant sur. But as Charles says, it isn't literally accurate. To me, retombant sur implies a sense of movement here (tomber is a verb of movement) and also, the direction of the movement is towards the culot, not from it (which "springing from" would mean - I agree that it wouldn't sit well with sur). Isn't there a verb/way in English to describe those movement and direction, something like: "that comes down to rest on.../that ends up resting on..."?

Charles Davis Aug 26, 2019:

Retombée, in the sense Ph_B mentions, is still a current architectural term. In English it can be called the spring or springing point (or abutment, and there are other terms) of an arch. So on the assumption that the sense of retomber sur is related to that, as I suppose it must be in principle, you could say "springing from"; that makes sense, and may be what it means. Though I have to say that it sits uneasily with sur for me. Maybe the idea is "originating on" or "with its bottom ends on".

Alternatively, perhaps you could just say "resting on". There are quite a lot of references to architectural elements, especially arches, "retombant sur" supporting elements, and frankly I think thiis is all it means in practice. However, I can't provide solid linguistic evidence for this translation and I'm not sure it's literally accurate; it's simply what I think an English writer would probably have put here.

Ph_B (X) Aug 26, 2019:

And in 1829... retombée = "foot of an arch" (https://books.google.fr/books?id=_Tnt2MAVDnIC&pg=PA808&lpg=P... I'll let you decide whether this is reliable or still in use, but thought I'd contribute it if it helps finding the translation of retombant.[Edit] I realise on reading Charles's post that mine isn't clear. My question mark was about "foot of an arch" - the date made me wonder whether this is still in use.

Ph_B (X) Aug 26, 2019:

Is this any help? I presume you've already seen this : "2. ARCHIT. Partie inférieure d'un élément de construction qui descend, qui s'incline. Retombée d'un arc, d'une nervure, d'une voûte. Une arcade (...) plein-cintre dont les retombées sont soutenues par des pilastres à chapiteaux (Du Camp, Hollande, 1859, p. 172).La hauteur du mur, mesurée en déduisant la retombée du plafond et la plinthe (Bonnel-Tassan1966, p. 148). ( https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/retombée )"<p>

This one is also interesting because of the drawing, to check that's what your text is about: Une retombée est, dans le sens strict, la naissance d'une voûte, d'une arcade, d'un arc ou de tout ouvrage cintré en architecture.
On donne, par extension, ce nom à tout motif sculpté formant chute et "retombant" en amortissement ou en cul-de-lampe.
Les lignes de retombée d'un plan, sont les lignes d'aplomb, tracées sur les parties droites ou rampantes, la base étant considérée de niveau. ( https://www.meubliz.com/definition/retombee/ )

Nicky Over (asker) Aug 26, 2019:

Thanks for this, but it's the phrase "retombant sur les culots" that I need help with rather than what "culots" etc are. Any ideas, please?

Marco Solinas Aug 25, 2019:

To Asker Have you seen this: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/architecture/13... ?
Is it of any use?