Sep 3, 2019 13:10
4 yrs ago
36 viewers *
English term
Accuracy, expertise & creativity
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, Portuguese to French
without prejudice
English to French
Other
Law (general)
Bonjour,
Je traduis un accord de règlement à l'amiable.
Le texte commence par:
"Without prejudice and subject to contract" du coup, la traduction est redondante : "sous toutes réserves et sous réserve de contrat".
Pourrait-on écrire : Sans préjudice des autres droits (sans porter atteinte aux autres droits) et sous réserve de contrat, sans que le sens ne soit trop éloigné ?
Merci pour votre aide,
Je traduis un accord de règlement à l'amiable.
Le texte commence par:
"Without prejudice and subject to contract" du coup, la traduction est redondante : "sous toutes réserves et sous réserve de contrat".
Pourrait-on écrire : Sans préjudice des autres droits (sans porter atteinte aux autres droits) et sous réserve de contrat, sans que le sens ne soit trop éloigné ?
Merci pour votre aide,
Proposed translations
(French)
| 5 +1 | sous toutes réserves |
Daryo
|
| 5 | sans préjudice |
B D Finch
|
| 3 -2 | Sans qu'il soit dérogé au contrat |
SimJ
|
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (1): Yvonne Gallagher
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Proposed translations
+1
4 hrs
Selected
sous toutes réserves
Le Lexique juridique annoté:
Sous toutes réserves
Expression utilisée au début d’une lettre (en général une mise en demeure) pour indiquer que son contenu ne peut être utilisé contre le ou la signataire.
Traduction anglaise :
Sous toutes réserves : without prejudice
https://monmanuelannote.com/manual/LXQ/section/119
sous toutes réserves [1 fiche]
Anglais
Subject field(s) Legal Documents Special-Language Phraseology
without prejudice correct
The "without prejudice" principle means statements made in a document marked "without prejudice" or made verbally on a "without prejudice" basis, in a genuine attempt to settle the dispute, will generally not be admissible in court as evidence against the person making the statement
Français
Domaine(s) Documents juridiques Phraséologie des langues de spécialité
-- sous réserve de tous droits correct
-- sous toutes réserves correct
-- sans préjudice à éviter, calque
OBS
[Dans une lettre,] la mention «sous toutes réserves» ou «sous réserve de tous droits» se place généralement en haut, à gauche, et elle s'écrit en majuscules.
http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?la...
Sous toutes réserves
Expression utilisée au début d’une lettre (en général une mise en demeure) pour indiquer que son contenu ne peut être utilisé contre le ou la signataire.
Traduction anglaise :
Sous toutes réserves : without prejudice
https://monmanuelannote.com/manual/LXQ/section/119
sous toutes réserves [1 fiche]
Anglais
Subject field(s) Legal Documents Special-Language Phraseology
without prejudice correct
The "without prejudice" principle means statements made in a document marked "without prejudice" or made verbally on a "without prejudice" basis, in a genuine attempt to settle the dispute, will generally not be admissible in court as evidence against the person making the statement
Français
Domaine(s) Documents juridiques Phraséologie des langues de spécialité
-- sous réserve de tous droits correct
-- sous toutes réserves correct
-- sans préjudice à éviter, calque
OBS
[Dans une lettre,] la mention «sous toutes réserves» ou «sous réserve de tous droits» se place généralement en haut, à gauche, et elle s'écrit en majuscules.
http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?la...
Note from asker:
| Sure, it was purely stylistic, but as you say, style in contract is like style in a camping...Thanks for your addition on this. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
11 mins
sans préjudice
This must have been asked before, but it can, anyway, be found in any dictionary, Linguee etc.
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Note added at 16 mins (2019-09-03 13:26:37 GMT)
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I don't think it is accurate to translate it as "Sans préjudice des autres droits (sans porter atteinte aux autres droits)". The whole point about the phrase "without prejudice" is that it is vague and all-encompassing. It means that nothing written below it can be relied upon by the addressee (or anyone else) as legally binding on the writer.
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Note added at 27 mins (2019-09-03 13:37:43 GMT)
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https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/2-107-7511?transi...
"The without prejudice (WP) rule will generally prevent statements made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute, whether made in writing or orally, from being put before the court as evidence of admissions against the interest of the party which made them. One reason for having the WP rule is the public policy of encouraging parties (or potential parties) to litigation to settle their disputes out of court. The rationale is that settlement discussions (and, it is hoped, settlement itself) will be facilitated if parties are able to speak freely, secure in the knowledge that what they have said and, in particular, any admissions which they might have made to try to settle the matter, may not be used against them should the settlement discussions fail. The inclusion of the words "without prejudice" will not necessarily bring the communication within the ambit of WP privilege if it is not, in substance, a communication made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute. "
http://sullivanlaw.ca/ask-a-lawyer-what-does-without-prejudi...
"The traditional meaning of ‘without prejudice’ it is to allow communications between parties without worrying that those communications, like letters or emails, will be used in court against the writer. However, it’s a term often misused by lawyers.
It should be used to preface settlement discussions. Some courts have taken it to mean, and rightfully so, that the communication contains a concession in order to achieve a settlement. However, simply putting ‘without prejudice’ at the top of a letter doesn’t automatically mean the content is in fact without prejudice. The content of the correspondence, the nature of the letter or its purpose, not the use of the words themselves, will dictate whether it is not to be used against the writer or the writer’s client."
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/007260
"On trouve parfois, dans un article de loi ou de règlement, l'expression « sans préjudice de... ». Par exemple, l'article L361-1 du code de la sécurité sociale commence par : « sans préjudice de l'application de l'article L. 313-1, l'assurance décès garantit aux ayants droit de l'assuré le paiement d'un capital égal à un montant forfaitaire... ». Mais, que doit-on comprendre exactement ?
Selon le guide de légistique, cette expression signifie que « la règle qui va être énoncée est sans incidence sur l’application d’une autre règle qu’on entend précisément ne pas écarter et qui pourra s’appliquer également ». Dans l’exemple donné, cela veut dire que les conditions générales prévues par un autre article, le L313-1, se cumulent avec les règles particulières énoncées par l’article. On peut remplacer mentalement l’expression « sans préjudice de … » par « sans écarter l’application/sans renoncer à l’application ».
De manière générale, « sans préjudice de » signifie « sans compter » : par exemple, « sans préjudice des éventuels dommages intérêts ».
Sur le site Service-public.fr, cette expression est toujours remplacée par une reformulation pédagogique éventuellement plus longue. "
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2019-09-03 13:26:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I don't think it is accurate to translate it as "Sans préjudice des autres droits (sans porter atteinte aux autres droits)". The whole point about the phrase "without prejudice" is that it is vague and all-encompassing. It means that nothing written below it can be relied upon by the addressee (or anyone else) as legally binding on the writer.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2019-09-03 13:37:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/2-107-7511?transi...
"The without prejudice (WP) rule will generally prevent statements made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute, whether made in writing or orally, from being put before the court as evidence of admissions against the interest of the party which made them. One reason for having the WP rule is the public policy of encouraging parties (or potential parties) to litigation to settle their disputes out of court. The rationale is that settlement discussions (and, it is hoped, settlement itself) will be facilitated if parties are able to speak freely, secure in the knowledge that what they have said and, in particular, any admissions which they might have made to try to settle the matter, may not be used against them should the settlement discussions fail. The inclusion of the words "without prejudice" will not necessarily bring the communication within the ambit of WP privilege if it is not, in substance, a communication made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute. "
http://sullivanlaw.ca/ask-a-lawyer-what-does-without-prejudi...
"The traditional meaning of ‘without prejudice’ it is to allow communications between parties without worrying that those communications, like letters or emails, will be used in court against the writer. However, it’s a term often misused by lawyers.
It should be used to preface settlement discussions. Some courts have taken it to mean, and rightfully so, that the communication contains a concession in order to achieve a settlement. However, simply putting ‘without prejudice’ at the top of a letter doesn’t automatically mean the content is in fact without prejudice. The content of the correspondence, the nature of the letter or its purpose, not the use of the words themselves, will dictate whether it is not to be used against the writer or the writer’s client."
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/007260
"On trouve parfois, dans un article de loi ou de règlement, l'expression « sans préjudice de... ». Par exemple, l'article L361-1 du code de la sécurité sociale commence par : « sans préjudice de l'application de l'article L. 313-1, l'assurance décès garantit aux ayants droit de l'assuré le paiement d'un capital égal à un montant forfaitaire... ». Mais, que doit-on comprendre exactement ?
Selon le guide de légistique, cette expression signifie que « la règle qui va être énoncée est sans incidence sur l’application d’une autre règle qu’on entend précisément ne pas écarter et qui pourra s’appliquer également ». Dans l’exemple donné, cela veut dire que les conditions générales prévues par un autre article, le L313-1, se cumulent avec les règles particulières énoncées par l’article. On peut remplacer mentalement l’expression « sans préjudice de … » par « sans écarter l’application/sans renoncer à l’application ».
De manière générale, « sans préjudice de » signifie « sans compter » : par exemple, « sans préjudice des éventuels dommages intérêts ».
Sur le site Service-public.fr, cette expression est toujours remplacée par une reformulation pédagogique éventuellement plus longue. "
Note from asker:
| Thanks! |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
writeaway
: 100% sure?? see dbox. Fr-En/En-Fr translation is rarely as simple as it seems
15 mins
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I very rarely use LC5, but this seems to need to convey the meaning of the English original, rather than to comply with French practice. Changing it might imply it meant something more limited and applied French law.
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| agree |
Yann Perrin
3 hrs
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Thanks Yann
|
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| disagree |
Daryo
: no - that means that some other dispostions/rights still remain applicable/are not waived => sounds like a false friend
3 hrs
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That is, of course a danger with using something that might be a faux ami. However, if the jurisdiction involved is US or UK and this is understood to be a translated document, then I think it is the best solution.
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| neutral |
Germaine
: En français, c'est considéré comme un calque pour un contexte comme celui de la question. // I don't.
4 hrs
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As I noted to Daryo, if the jurisdiction involved is US or UK and this is understood to be a translated document, then I think it is the best solution.
|
-2
17 hrs
Sans qu'il soit dérogé au contrat
Bonjour, tout dépend du reste de la phrase, mais je comprends les choses ainsi : le règlement à l'amiable reste en accord avec le contrat et n'y apporte pas de modifications (il ne s'agit pas d'un avenant).
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Germaine
: On sait maintenant qu'il n'y a pas encore de contrat. Cf. discussion.
5 hrs
|
| disagree |
Daryo
: the formula "subject to contract" is NEVER used when there is already an existing contract. It's basically an abbreviation for "all this will happens IF and WHEN we put that in a FUTURE / YET TO COME contract"
13 hrs
|
| disagree |
B D Finch
: However, re Daryo's comment, it means that this may or may not be included in a contract that may or may not happen and, in any case, it can't be taken as binding upon or evidence against the writer.
1 day 5 hrs
|
Discussion
can't resist ...
"style in contract is like style in a camping ..." OK, you could put it that way, but have you tried "glamping"?
On a more serious note, style certainly is important - no one likes reading clumsily formulated text - but accuracy comes first, second and third in legal documents.
@ B D Finch
Sous toutes réserves
Expression utilisée au début d’une lettre (en général une mise en demeure) pour indiquer que son contenu ne peut être utilisé contre le ou la signataire.
so in practical terms: Sous toutes réserves = "whatever I say in this letter can not be used against me"
That seems to cover more than enough? [the exact opposite of "whatever you say will be used against you", BTW]
Here's an example. During negotiations to sell a property, the seller wrote a letter "sous toutes réserves" saying that they would reduce the price by €N because the potential purchasers wanted to remove a beam in the attic. The contract stated that the seller had fully disclosed any defects they were aware of. Later, the beam was found to be infested with death watch beetle. Could the offer in that letter be used as evidence that the seller knew of the infestation (which the surveyor had failed to spot and which had now spread elsewhere) and knowingly failed to disclose it? Could it be held that the covering of foil over the beam had been deliberately installed to hide the infestation?
unless some (to say it politely ...) silly rule of "style" is supposed to be more important than accuracy in a legal document?
BTW "sous toutes réserves, notamment contractuelles..." would imply that an EXISTING contract includes some kind of "réserves" NOT that whatever is said is worth zilch until a corresponding contract comes into existence (i.e. "subject to a contract YET TO COME")
Any other attempt based on [censored] "rules of styles" to avoid the correct translation would very likely be as "accurate"...
"Sous réserve de tous droits et sous réserve de contrat"
ou ce que ça veut dire:
"Sous toutes réserves et à condition d'un contrat"
Then, the following sentence says:
Re: Settlement agreement
Dear Mr. YYY....
"Without préjudice" se traduit de diverses façons selon le contexte. Comme d'habitude, pour bien faire, il faudrait le reste de la phrase ou en tout cas, ce qui suit immédiatement.
par exemple