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| | | Asking for variances would be OK | Aug 5, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
The fact that some job poster may select a wrong condition and post the job ignoring all warnings is not, in my opinion, a reasong strong enough to override the preferences of all job posters.
Hola Enrique,
I'm not suggesting to override any stonewall features. My suggestion is to allow SMALL messages, brief tips, to be sent directly to job posters, not necessarily when direct contact is precluded.
For instance, my most frequent one would be:
"Please specify Brazilian or European Portuguese. Info at http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/1675/ "
... without having to open the job poster's profile, click on e-mail, copy&paste the job#, and go through all the customary politeness protocol in the message.
Anyway, there can always be the option to squelch all such messages, if the job poster prefers to disable this feature.
So far, job posters have been thankful for my voluntary warnings on language variants, BR sworn translations being always in hard copy (no overnight transoceanic delivery), missing word count, video translation options (dubbing or subtitling?), PDF possibilities instead of DTP rework, etc.
Most nay-sayers to this idea envision a massive attack of hundreds of desperate jobless non-native speakers attempting to override such requirement. The way I see it done, it won't help them in any way.
Hola amigo,
Allowing candidates who are in line with the job poster requirements to ask for additional information on the job would be useful, and at the same time the poster preferences would be respected. If job poster requested nativeness in Portuguese, members who have not declared such condition would still be excluded from the job.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | it does happen... | Aug 5, 2013 |
nobody is denying that, but I think Enrique has given you good enough reasons not to change the system. At the end of the day, even if I made a mistake in my job posting, I would be highly annoyed if I received message from 40 translators telling me I made a mistake... 
| | | | | changes to the system | Aug 5, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
nobody is denying that, but I think Enrique has given you good enough reasons not to change the system. At the end of the day, even if I made a mistake in my job posting, I would be highly annoyed if I received message from 40 translators telling me I made a mistake...
Yes, except many translators like me who claim only one native language would like to see changes to the system such as:
long-term:
a verification procedure for those who claim two native languages - meaning something that makes it very likely that translators who claim two native languages really do have two native languages. There is certainly a likelihood that without verification, some might simply claim two native languages. We discussed this. That wouldn't be fair and weakens the system. A non-native speaker of English who claims English as his/her second native language will appear in anyone's search for native speakers of English. While one can argue that this is a minority, it still doesn't make it right and Proz.com has been working to introduce verification for members who claim two languages.
short-term:
I think as long as this is not installed, there should be some note in the search results that the native languages of such a person (= someone who claims two native languages) are not verified, and, if I may suggest this,
the native speakers who only claim one native language (in this example English) should be listed first.
Now I understand that this might seem unfair to a small group of English native speakers who really have a second native language (this is also true for native speakers of other languages that are spoken in monolingual regions) or to groups of translators who stem from multi-lingual regions, but at least for the latter, they could be listed along with monolingual native speakers in the search results and not behind them.
The status quo favors any translators who claim two native languages over those who claim one, although two languages are unverified and it's less likely both are indeed native languages - they appear as native speakers twice.
[Edited at 2013-08-06 02:49 GMT]
| | | | | Don't you know Bernhard, that verifying anyone's native language would be illegal in the US.? | Aug 5, 2013 |
This is my first point. The second one is that even if it were not the case the term is too vague -- it includes too many definitions to conduct any verifications. My third point would be -- don't you think that some people may even have three, four or more so called 'native languages. My father was definitely a native speaker of Lithuanian and Russian, but he could probably even claim Polish as well -- the Eastern variety. Not everybody is monolingual in the world, like in some places.
<... See more This is my first point. The second one is that even if it were not the case the term is too vague -- it includes too many definitions to conduct any verifications. My third point would be -- don't you think that some people may even have three, four or more so called 'native languages. My father was definitely a native speaker of Lithuanian and Russian, but he could probably even claim Polish as well -- the Eastern variety. Not everybody is monolingual in the world, like in some places.
[Edited at 2013-08-05 22:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| I've just finished about 12 straight hours of translating.... | Aug 5, 2013 |
My eyes burn, I can barely focus on the screen, I'm so tired I make coma patients look lively and yet there's something about reading:
Don't you know Bernhard, that verifying anyone's native language would be illegal in the US.?
...that makes me despair far more than the tiredness I am currently experiencing
Time for bed me thinks.... Zzzzzzzz
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 21:01
Italian to English
| New York Times article about writers changing language | Aug 6, 2013 |
This is a fascinating article on the subject of writers changing language, published on August 4th in the New York Times:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/born-again-in-a-second-language/?src=rechp
The basic thesis is that, for writers, the experience of changing language is "nothing short of life threateni... See more This is a fascinating article on the subject of writers changing language, published on August 4th in the New York Times:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/born-again-in-a-second-language/?src=rechp
The basic thesis is that, for writers, the experience of changing language is "nothing short of life threatening'.
One of my favorite quotes from the piece is: "to abandon your native tongue and to adopt another is to dismantle yourself, piece by piece, and then to put yourself together again, in a different form".
And here is another, perhaps more directly related to this thread: "Becoming a writer in a language that is not yours by birth, though, goes against nature; there is nothing organic in this process, only artifice. There are no linguistic “instincts” to guide you on the path and the language’s guardian angels rarely whisper into your ear; you are truly on your own."
Throughout this whole proz.com debate about native language claims, a question I keep coming back to is, how easy and/or common is it for someone to "become", much less "be", a writer in more than one language? In making claims for more than one "native" language, are people truly saying that they have been trained as writers in both (or all) of those languages to the same high standard? And, more to the point, that such vast numbers of translators are truly writers in more than one language, such as to make the native language requirement a profession-wide problem?
I am American, and I have been training to write in English my whole life. Due to the kinds of schools I attended, which were all writing-intensive, including grade school, my writing skills in English were pushed hard from when I first started learning to write up through my PhD and beyond. Thinking over all of those years of training, it is difficult to imagine simultaneously going through a similarly intense experience in one or -- gasp -- more additional language(s). Did people claiming more than one native language really train equally as writers in both or all of these languages? How possible and/or common is that?
I admit that considering my own experience and the stories about writers changing language presented in the NYT article, I find it a bit unlikely that the native language requirement for translators can really be so off-base as has been argued throughout this proz.com discussion. After all, "[t]here is something 'natural' in one’s becoming a writer in one’s native language".
Sarah ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I can assure you, Lilian, it's perfectly alright to verify native languages | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
This is my first point. The second one is that even if it were not the case the term is too vague -- it includes too many definitions to conduct any verifications. My third point would be -- don't you think that some people may even have three, four or more so called 'native languages. My father was definitely a native speaker of Lithuanian and Russian, but he could probably even claim Polish as well -- the Eastern variety. Not everybody is monolingual in the world, like in some places.
[Edited at 2013-08-05 22:50 GMT]
here at Proz.com!
Please read the FAQ, 8.1 - 8.11
http://www.proz.com/faq/764#764
A vague term for some - but why? I am 100% sure about my native language because I have one - learned it from early childhood.
Do some people have three, four or more native languages? Well, I doubt it very much. Not very likely if you consider what native language means: a language you learned from childhood - that means for quite some years!
Definition:
http://www.princeton.edu/gradschool/admission/applicants/applying/toefl_ielts/
"Native language” is defined as the language you grew up speaking in your family, your community, or your nation."
That's a simple definition, but implied are concepts we have discussed already such as "critical period", schooling, social contact within your community, cultural immersion, etc.
Point is, if you say you are a native speaker of US English and your typical native speaker of US English says no, you're not.
Lots of people "speak" more than two languages but that doesn't mean they are native speakers of these languages.
B
[Edited at 2013-08-06 03:17 GMT]
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 21:01
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Despair seconded | Aug 6, 2013 |
We have already been told that we are not allowed to make legal interpretations. Anyhow, I can't believe for a second that a translator cannot be asked what his or her native language is in the US or anywhere in the world. In fact, translators should be forthcoming with this information.
Why is the concept of "native" language vague for the purposes of translation. A native language in the context of translation is one that you write in perfectly. This means that even if you are a d... See more We have already been told that we are not allowed to make legal interpretations. Anyhow, I can't believe for a second that a translator cannot be asked what his or her native language is in the US or anywhere in the world. In fact, translators should be forthcoming with this information.
Why is the concept of "native" language vague for the purposes of translation. A native language in the context of translation is one that you write in perfectly. This means that even if you are a dodgy translator another native of that language would know from reading your translation that you are native... If you are indeed a native of a language you won't need to be told as much, as you will already know yourself. The chances of you having two, three or four native languages for the purposes of translation are very close to zero. It is more likely that you do not have any native language at all. ▲ Collapse
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| Wy don't you just come to the US Ty and | Aug 6, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
My eyes burn, I can barely focus on the screen, I'm so tired I make coma patients look lively and yet there's something about reading:
Don't you know Bernhard, that verifying anyone's native language would be illegal in the US.?
...that makes me despair far more than the tiredness I am currently experiencing
Time for bed me thinks.... Zzzzzzzz
explore the reality and the legal system instead of guessing. Also, if you check the sites of some real -- academic translation associations, not commercial ones, which require published translations in a particular language pair to become a member, some even at least one translation within the prior calendar year, and which are often associated with various universities (in the US) you won't find and questions personal questions like that. They will only ask you about your education,but mostly published work.
As to the New York Times article, I find it a total nonsense, like many things written by some literary critics that write there. Otherwise, it may be the author's personal experience but it has nothing universal in it, and the personal experience should not be projected on the rest of the humanity. What if the first language of some people is not even the language that most of their ancestors spoke? What if it does not go too well with their temperament, or nature. What if they find it insufficient or cumbersome for expressing their more sublime thoughts?
Things like that would be more obvious to the people from multi-lingual environments, and people who have studied and loved linguistic for years, and feel the subtleties of language. I don't expect any, mostly monolingual, writer to know anything about it.
Maybe it is not a total nonsense -- perhaps just his own personal experience. The nonsense parts starts when he tries to project his experience on all other people.
In fact, it might hard now for most people these days to write in any other language than English due to the exposure, or overexposure. This is what is happening in many European countries right now. If you want to be successful -- you go and study X in English, not in the language of your fathers.
I really don't what it would be like to write in a language that someone has learned at the age of 20 and up -- like me writing in Spanish -- I don't know, but I think it might be possible.
As to multilingual people -- of course many speak a few languages form their childhood. Not every home is a monolingual home, in a town where everyone speaks the same variety of the language, the schools conduct classes only in that language, and everyone has always spoken the languages if you go ten centuries back. It would be even strange in more multilingual environments if people spoke just one language, from their early year.
It is true, however, that a person usually writes only in one language -- the dominant language. Some people may, however, be able to write in more than one.I am also really puzzled how can someone write about any academic subjects in their L1 if they have all of their university education and academic work in L2. I could never write anything like that in Polish and Russian. Perhaps just some letters, something of a more general nature, although I understand those languages to the highest levels and speak them really well.
[Edited at 2013-08-06 11:04 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| Brilliant quotes Sarah! | Aug 6, 2013 |
S. Elizabeth wrote:
This is a fascinating article on the subject of writers changing language, published on August 4th in the New York Times:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/born-again-in-a-second-language/?src=rechp
The basic thesis is that, for writers, the experience of changing language is "nothing short of life threatening'.
One of my favorite quotes from the piece is: "to abandon your native tongue and to adopt another is to dismantle yourself, piece by piece, and then to put yourself together again, in a different form".
And here is another, perhaps more directly related to this thread: "Becoming a writer in a language that is not yours by birth, though, goes against nature; there is nothing organic in this process, only artifice. There are no linguistic “instincts” to guide you on the path and the language’s guardian angels rarely whisper into your ear; you are truly on your own."
Sarah
Especially the latter one! I also quite liked:
“for any man a change of religion is as dangerous a thing as a change of language is for a writer. It may turn out a success, but it can also have disastrous consequences.”
[Edited at 2013-08-06 11:17 GMT]
| | | | | You can change both, if you want to. | Aug 6, 2013 |
Some people even change their sex.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| Indeed they do, but if you want to use that analogy... | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Some people even change their sex.
Then even transgendered people essentially retain the gender they were born with, the change is cosmetic only.
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S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 21:01
Italian to English
| "What language were you trained to read and write in?" | Aug 6, 2013 |
I suppose a more appropriate question might be just that, what language were you trained to read and write in, as opposed to what is your native language.
Judging from what some of the posters to this and other threads on the subject seem to have in common, the "native language requirement" becomes a problem when a person's technically native language is not the language they learned to write (and presumably read) in at a mature, polished level. In other words, their native language... See more I suppose a more appropriate question might be just that, what language were you trained to read and write in, as opposed to what is your native language.
Judging from what some of the posters to this and other threads on the subject seem to have in common, the "native language requirement" becomes a problem when a person's technically native language is not the language they learned to write (and presumably read) in at a mature, polished level. In other words, their native language is not the language of their training as writers (and presumably readers, as the two go hand in hand).
I would think that at root there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and that in the end, the onus is on translators wanting to work in markets that lack familiarity with the realities of their culture's educational system and training methods, and they should be prepared to market and present themselves accordingly.
It is difficult to imagine that a site like proz.com, which offers a database featuring ALL language pairs, could ever be structured to handle all of the professional "realities" out there, any more than agencies that purport to offer services in all language pairs and all specializations could feasibly operate in such a way.
It has come out in this and the other threads on native language that there are vastly different ways of defining a "professional translator", depending on the culture of provenance (ranging from "professional translators only translate into their native language" to "professional translators must be able to translate in both directions"): can a single website be reasonably expected to take all of them into account?
edited for typo ("depending on" instead of "of")
[Edited at 2013-08-06 14:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
S. Elizabeth wrote:
It has come out in this and the other threads on native language that there are vastly different ways of defining a "professional translator", depending of the culture of provenance (ranging from "professional translators only translate into their native language" to "professional translators must be able to translate in both directions"): can a single website be reasonably expected to take all of them into account?
| | | | | You are not born with any lanuage, Ty, or religion | Aug 6, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Some people even change their sex.
Then even transgendered people essentially retain the gender they were born with, the change is cosmetic only.
These are just some concepts cherished by the lay people.
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