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French to English translations [PRO] Tech/Engineering - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
French term or phrase:puits à roue
This is a type of water wheel but using water from a well, but I don't know whether there is a name for it in English or whether it's a very specific invention. (I'm translating a text about a silk mill in the Cévennes.) I'd use 'wheel well' but that has a very different meaning in English, of course. Can anyone help? (This text is getting far too technical!)
Anne, I suppose if you wanted to play it very safe, you could put "well with a wheel". There is a strong case for this, given the variety of possible set-ups, as demonstrated by my image search above.
"well equipped with a wheel" is perhaps clearer.
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To Anne: yes a very interesting one. It didn't turn out to be as simple as all that!
Thanks to all who contributed: this post certainly provoked some discussion! Given that it would appear that there is no universal English term for such a system, and that the French 'puits à roue' is only used once, in the heading to describe the Occitan word, I think Conor's proposal is the safest and simplest here. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Also note that the first photo on that page is criticised by a comment at the bottom where someone says "Votre 1ère photo de puits à roue me semble inappropriée: il s’agit d’une roue à aube d’un moulin à eau et non d’une roue à godets ou à augets mues par la force humaine ou, le plus souvent, animale (mûle, âne)" ... which in fact merely deepens the confusion.
However, Althea's second link in her most recent discussion post is the best so far, in my view. From which I conclude that it would probably be best to put pousarenque in italics, with an explanation in square brackets or a footnote the first time it appears. Bearing in mind, also and particularly, that this is specifically about a device in the Cévennes, slap-bang in the middle of Occitanie, and I believe the evidence is that puits à roue is a crude Gallicism, crudely introduced because of the Académie's repellent and long-standing determination to crush regional French tongues.
Unless... someone can really come up with an English language equivalent.
There are several spelling conventions for spelling the Occitan language, hence the numerous spelling found, pouso-raco is closer to the Occitan pronounciation of the word. The pronounciation of "posaranca" using IPA will be something like /'puzɔ.'ra(ŋ)kɔ/
The documentary series covers the assimilation of people from abroad, but, if memory serves, also covers the "assimilation" of people from "la province" a bit...no comment.
I've just searched the word "petiot", which means male child here locally in Dijon, that's not in Larousse.
Also the French State, for a long period, had a policy of supressing local parlers in the interest of nation-building: I was just curious.
And you have the Académie Française, which seems to think that fewer words is better, versus the Canadian approach, for example "courriel" for email and other great examples. I think courriel was a great solution, but almost everybody in France says "mail".
Need to defend the language against English!
"DIY" in French is especially a term I loathe, the meaning is betrayed in French: "DIY barres aux céréales" I read today!!!
Off-topic again.
Personally I thought you should have posted your solution as an answer, but maybe you felt that Althea got there first.
I have some experience with "parlers". Someone I used to know speaks Morvandiau (spoken in the Morvan in Burgundy), she was doing an interpretation job in the 71, the men she was working with started speaking about her unfavourably in the local parler, which she understood, and she gave them a right telling off!
To the broader point, I'm not sure how much words from parlers are integrated into what might be called standard French.
And to go off-topic again, researching Occitan made me think about how much nation-building has been done in France and Spain -- google "Spanish communities" (communidad I think) if you're interested. Spain is actually a federal nation!
I'm just trying to understand what you meant by "your term". Did I suggest a term? What do you mean? What is the translation I suggested? Sorry, but I was just trying to understand your post.
My "Wow" was more directed at the complexity of the apparatus, it was in no way directed at the quality of your analysis. I respect you and Althea as translators, based on what you and she post on KudoZ, I'm not at all in the business of being provocative or gratuitously disrespectful.
We're in a very tough business, so respect to anybody who even dares to be a translator these days.
Cyril, I'm not at all saying you're wrong, you certainly make a good argument, and your term is a valid option.
What I'm saying is that, given my image search, the term means different things to different people, so why not play it safe, use the basic elements of the French term, which translate to well and wheel?
The term "well with a wheel" is ok, given that the unstated purpose is getting water out of a well, but maybe "well equipped with a wheel" is clearer.
Althea's post on saqiya gives a very good description of what a posaranca is. To me "puits à roue" is an imperfect attempt to translate an Occitan concept (ie posaranca) into French. The other word that would come to mind when talking about a "posaranca" would be a noria. Here is an example: https://www.lambesc.fr/ma-ville/decouvrez-lambesc/patrimoine... The pot garland (chapelet de godets) and the endless belt (chaîne sans fin) are important elements for a "true" posaranca.
Anne, I suppose if you wanted to play it very safe, you could put "well with a wheel". There is a strong case for this, given the variety of possible set-ups, as demonstrated by my image search above.
So the well is operated by the function of the wheel? I would say its the irrigation or water provision that functions due to the wheel. The well or pit is not operated by the wheel. I agree about the use of "puits", which is why I suggested "pit". I did not mean that the water powers the wheel.
I think we're confusing things by using the term "waterwheel". The water doesn't power the wheel, which would be impossible - it's powered by animals.
The French also confuses things by calling it a well, because it's the equipment that lifts the water from the well. You could just leave it out, but if you want a translation, Conor's suggestion works.
Yes, but I am talking about usage of terms. We can say "water pit" and mean the same thing, surely? And the wheel is operated by the well, not the other way round. Water wheel pit. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/water-wheel-pit.html What i mean is it sounds like the wheel operates the provision of water for irrigation or factory use of whatever. The well is not operated by the wheel, it is surely the irrigation or whatever that functions through the wheel, the well just sits there in it water-filled state.
Is this necessarily referring to an actual "well" though? It could mean just a "pit" where the water is sent for the operation of the wheel. I get the impression it is the "wheel" that is being operated and not the well, as the "wheel-operated" answer below would imply. Is the well actually operated by the wheel? I thought it would be the other way round - or am I just being pedantic? Although this is definitely a "water wheel".
La posaranca désigne une machine servant à extraire d’un puits de l’eau destinée à l’irrigation. Sa mise en mouvement utilise de l’énergie animale (cheval, mulet ou âne). L’animal tourne sur une aire surélevée par rapport à la parcelle à irriguer, entraînant au moyen d’un timon, un axe vertical qui grâce à un dispositif d’engrenage de renvoi d’angle actionne un axe horizontal. Celui-ci met en mouvement, sur le puits, une roue verticale qui entraine une chaîne sans fin sur laquelle est accroché un chapelet de godets. Plongeant dans le puits, ils se remplissent pour se vider dans un réceptacle, quand, atteignant le sommet de la roue, ils se retournent. La posaranca est un dispositif remontant à l’Antiquité. Son invention étant naturellement postérieure à celle du renvoi d’angle déjà décrit par Vitruve.
Could you provide the surrounding text please? And is this the only occurrence?
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
30 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
Water wheel pit
Explanation: I think this is a possibility.
The site of what was once the world's largest water wheel has been excavated by archaeologists in Stockport. The Wellington Water Wheel, part of Mellor Mill, was the biggest in the world when it was built in 1793. In its heyday, the mill employed about 550 people. It was destroyed by fire in 1892. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17320765
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"Oxford Archaeology undertook a programme of archaeological investigation and recording on the surviving walls and other remains of a WATER WHEEL PIT at Anchor Island, to the south-west of Kelmscott, on the border between Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire. The site forms part of the Buscot Estate and was commissioned by The National Trust in advance of proposed repair and consolidation works to the structure. The substantial remains survive from a pair of waterwheels which were installed in the 1860s to pump water from a well adjacent to the Thames around Buscot estate as part of major agricultural improvement works and an ambitious irrigation scheme created by Robert Campbell the new owner of Buscot Park." https://library.oxfordarchaeology.com/295/
Lara Barnett United Kingdom Local time: 16:01 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8 2 corroborated select projects in this pair and field
Persian water wheel / Persian well / Persian wheel
Explanation: "A Persian well is a type of water well found in the Middle East, often used in conjunction with a qanat. These wells feature an ox-driven pump where the ox walks in circles around a central drive shaft which turns a wheel that raises water via a chain of buckets from the qanat or a well. In some cases water flows fast enough that a subterranean waterwheel may harness enough power to raise the buckets of water to the surface level. Its not a well but a wheel." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_well
"A sāqiyah or saqiya (Arabic: ساقية), also spelled sakia or saqia) is a mechanical water lifting device. It is also called a Persian wheel, tablia, rehat, and in Latin tympanum.[1] It is similar in function to a scoop wheel, which uses buckets, jars, or scoops fastened either directly to a vertical wheel, or to an endless belt activated by such a wheel. The vertical wheel is itself attached by a drive shaft to a horizontal wheel, which is traditionally set in motion by animal power (oxen, donkeys, etc.) Because it is not using the power of flowing water, the sāqiyah is different from a noria and any other type of water wheel." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah#With_buckets_attached_...
"Persian wheel Device to lift water, particularly for agricultural purposes. It consists of an endless chain of buckets, typically with an individual capacity of 8-15 litres mounted on a drum and submerged in water to the required depth. The drum is connected to a toothed wheel held in a vertical plane by a long shaft usually kept below ground level. The vertical toothed wheel is geared with a large toothed horizontal wheel connected to a horizontal beam. This beam is yoked to a pair of animals. The animals move in a circle to turn the drum and raise the water. Water is released when the bucket reaches the top." https://sswm.info/content/persian-wheel