This site uses cookies.
Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site,
while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used.
For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
French to English translations [PRO] Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
French term or phrase:réponse de jésuite
"Sans vouloir donner une **réponse de jésuite**, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs"
I'm not sure what this idiom means. I can't decide whether it is something along the lines of "dodge the issue" or "give a roundabout answer". Maybe "without trying to be smart"
The only definitions I have found online seem to indicate that it implies insincerity or hypocrisy, but that doesn't seem to be the case here
"Dissembling or equivocating, in the manner once associated with Jesuits."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-05-21 11:52:27 GMT) Post-grading --------------------------------------------------
Stephen, glad to have helped and totally agree with you that the text should not be "dumbed down" or that the term should be ignored or paraphrased. The adjective "Jesuitical" is still used in English whatever some people seem to think though it seems it may be higher register than in French. But I believe modern usage of the adjective means highly intellectualised, as the Jesuits are the most highly educated in the Catholic priesthood and are sometimes feared by the less intelligent as they can talk rings around them. Just as some politicians do in fact.
. et péj. Par allusion à la casuistique des moralistes jésuites, et notamment à la pratique de la restriction mentale, se dit d'une personne qui montre une subtilité un peu retorse, qui manque de franchise et de sincérité. C'est un jésuite. Faire une réponse de jésuite. Adjt. Un air jésuite. Des manières jésuites. Maybe pne should have started here
"Abstruse" would have indeed been a super suggestion and a synonym is "obscure" which makes me think of religion (obscurantism) which some people might have liked as it at least keeps the religious connotation of the original expression in French But that's l'esprit d'escalier for you.
I think confinement is rotting my brain ! Asker has made his choice but it sounds REALLY funny in English and not immediately understandable to English-speaking readers - strange choice
In the end I'm using the more literal "Jesuitical response", which despite my previously stated concerns is still the correct translation for the term, and while it might not be the most common expression in English, it definitely does exist and it conveys the same connotations as the original. Furthermore, I don't think I want to "dumb down" the text by paraphrasing or explaining the concept (although I liked some of the suggestions, especially Daryo's).
I disagreed with you and you asked me "so just because you don't know it you disagree???" The answer is NO.
I disagreed with it because hardly ANYONE knows it.
It's really not personal and most of us get a bit hot under the collar at times (me included) but another person disagreed for similar reasons and all the neutrals bring up this point too.
if we had some historical term that had no present day counterpart, we would have to live with the historical term but it's not the case here so the disagrees/neutrals are valid viewpoints.
Regards
21 May. I changed the disagree to a neutral as Writeaway made me realize that a disagree is very harsh in this case.
Hello Isn't this really "botter en touché" or "noyer le poisson" ou "langue de bois" more or less. Looking up these expressions, I see things like "prevaricate" (already suggested), "waffle", dodge the question (suggested in discussion) etc;
is this perhaps a way to proceed to find a suitable translation for the question?
yes, we need a good reason to reject a literal translation for an expression that exists in both languages but I think we have one. The expression in English is not widely used, is archaic and most people (including me), have no idea at all as to what it means (hence my disagree) Just my opinion on this.
Yvonne, I just feel that the literal "Jesuitical" loses its meaning in a global English context, even for an educated audience. Culture and context of the TARGET audience are important. Otherwise, imagine the translation "The mechanic charged me a Christ host of a tabernacle for my wheel alignment" in a text from Quebec.
ph-b (X)
France
Just seen katsy's note
14:47 May 20, 2020
Yes, that too. Not quite the same meaning as Y's "ambiguous" (encore que...) but then, we don't really know what the author meant.
ph-b (X)
France
Yvonne,
14:46 May 20, 2020
"Who said anything about it being "popular" (other than ph-b)?" I wouldn't, nor did I, describe it as "popular". I said the register was not as high as the answers given then. Far more people (in France, anyway) would understand it - not necessarily use it - than people in the UK would understand "jesuitical"/"equivocation"/"prevarication". The translation must take that into account, and as I said earlier, I agree with your "ambiguous", which I think is about the right level.
a bit late in the day, maybe, but I would agree with ph-b at 14.14; I do have the impression that the French expression is used relatively often. He mentions moving the register up from "dodging the issue" .... I'd suggest in that case: "evading the issue".
ph-b (X)
France
Yvonne,
13:22 May 20, 2020
There's nothing dismissive about saying that ghits are of no help to me when I translate. They're simply not reliable, as far as I am concerned. To start with, their number is only meaningful if you can check each and every source. I haven't got enough time for that. As for "ambiguous", yes, that's definitely something that I would consider if I were doing this translation.
I look at Ghits sometimes just to see how commonly used a term is and they are very useful for that purpose. Also helps to see the context and register of a term in usage. It seems clear to me that this is not as widely used as you think. So no need to be so dismissive.
Halfway down the page: https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/03/14/qui-sont-le... I agree with Stephen that the author may not be using this expression as s-he should, esp. since it tends to be pejorative. S-he wouldn't say that about her/himself. "Dodging the issue" is probably the right meaning, but the translation would have to be a bit more upmarket.
ph-b (X)
France
Yvonne,
12:32 May 20, 2020
Thank you for checking the number of ghits for me. I've never found that the number of ghits, be it high or low, was at all reliable when translating. My instinct and knowledge as a linguist, the native speakers around me, relevant texts and paper or online dictionaries are all I need, really.
I don't know if the author of the source text is using the expression correctly, but I suspect not as is so often the case. Basically he says that the wrong question is being asked and then explains why, before answering the question anyway a few lines further down. This is why I had thought of "dodging the issue" or something along those lines.
@ph-b's comment just appeared as I was typing this, and I was just going to ask precisely whether anybody had any suggestions about how pretentious the expression sounds in French compared to the direct equivalent in English. So thanks!
ph-b (X)
France
The register of "réponse de jésuite"
12:14 May 20, 2020
is not necessarily very high in French. You will often hear it, given the right context, and probably more, I daresay, than"jesuitical"/"equivocation"/"prevarication" in English. It's plainer than that. "I don't wish to sound as if I'm dodging the issue, but I must..."? PS: Perhaps a higher register than "dodge the issue", but to me, less than the other Eglish answers given so so far.
Yes to "give a roundabout answer" in the same manner as a politician can answer a question without really giving an answer at all. You're no wiser in other words! But the register seems to be higher than this. If you don't want "Jesuitical" you can use "dissembling" or "equivocating" as given in my definition.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
45 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +3
a prevaricating response
Explanation: Or indeed "without wishing to prevaricate" . I have no objection whatsoever to Yvonne's answer, but I take the point that some readers may not understand immediately the "Jesuitical". However, I have chosen a rather old-fashioned/little used word myself, and maybe it will receive a similar reaction. (memories of Richardson's "Pamela", described repeatedly by Mr B as a "prevaricator"...)
katsy Local time: 22:50 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 15