à la charge du cas privilegié

English translation: tried under the Royal prerogative

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:à la charge du cas privilegié
English translation:tried under the Royal prerogative
Entered by: AllegroTrans

00:27 Feb 24, 2021
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: à la charge du cas privilegié
This phrase appears in a 1607 French text recounting a legal decision:

"...et pour le curér envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait et parfait sur la faute et abus par lui commis en sa charge en la célébration dudit pretendu marriage, sans consentement et hors la présence des parents, et sans publication des bans, à la charge du cas privilegié, à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel..."

Thanks for any insight!
Natalie Kammerer
United States
Local time: 18:33
tried under Royal privilege/preroragative
Explanation:
The "privilege" here appears to have been that of the French monarch, as intimated by Adrian.

Otherwise, iof I read correctly, a member of the clergy could claim benefit of clergy
Selected response from:

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:33
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +1cas privilegie
Kathleen Johnson
3 +1tried under Royal privilege/preroragative
AllegroTrans
5 -1this being a special case including secular authorities (involving secular authorities' privilege) )
Daryo
2 +1with benefit of clergy overridden by the > French > Royal Prerogative
Adrian MM.
3 -1under the auspices of the Royal Court
SafeTex
3 -2at the expense of the preferred situation/circumstance
Timothy Rake


Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
at the expense of the preferred situation/circumstance


Explanation:
from the context of this "ancient" text, I'm making an educated guess...sounds as if the kids ran off and eloped without publishing marriage bans, without informing the parents and got married "at the expense (of what might have been) the preferred case/situation/circumstance" – I think anyone of those terms, which are valid translations of "cas" could be used here.

Timothy Rake
United States
Local time: 16:33
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 52

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: you missed the they point it's THE PRIEST that is being prosecuted, and it's about WHO can prosecute this priest.
4 hrs

disagree  AllegroTrans: You've missed the point that this is about the mode of prosecution
13 hrs
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57 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
cas privilegie


Explanation:
Not really an anwer, but I wonder if this might provide some insight." The website universalis.fr gives the following definition of "cas privilegies."
"Affaires judiciaires concernant des membres de l'Église et réservées aux juridictions royales. Celles-ci s'étaient, durant le haut Moyen Âge et pour enlever aux juridictions ecclésiastiques tout monopole de justice, donné trois procédés leur donnant préséance en matière judiciaire : la saisie du temporel, l'appel comme d'abus et les cas privilégiés. Cette dernière expression désigne donc à la fois et les cas que l'autorité royale s'était réservés et le processus juridique de dessaisissement des tribunaux ecclésiastiques." auquel il correspondait.


    Reference: http://universalis.fr
Kathleen Johnson
United States
Local time: 16:33
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Daryo: you are on the right track - but far more context is needed, like who exactly is judging this priest - if it's a royal court and not a the church, it could mean that this was an instance of "cas privilégié"
3 hrs

neutral  SafeTex: I think you should have put this in the references section but it's very helpful in any case. I won't agree simply 'cos it's not a translation but I've based my attempt on it. Thanks
9 hrs

neutral  AllegroTrans: Good reference but not an answer
12 hrs
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
under the auspices of the Royal Court


Explanation:
this is really hard to crack but I would suggest something like this which does not say too little or too much.
Because even if it does not make much sense to the layman, we cannot start explaining everything in the text to translate and we have to assume that the reader has some knowledge of such matters if reading such a text.
This suggestion is based on Kathleen's reference, added in the discussion rather than the reference section and given again below


    Reference: http://universalis.fr
SafeTex
France
Local time: 00:33
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 87

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: Correct about the Court, but this misses the "cas privilegié" point, which is central here
3 hrs

disagree  Daryo: no, the representative of the King / the secular power (i.e."le lieutenant criminel") is only "participating" in proceedings led by "l'Official de Paris" a judge of the ecclesiastical court
1 day 6 hrs
  -> It's a Royal court as established by Kathleen. Your own attempt using secular misses this and the English is a clumsy and long winded as always but that did not stop you giving it a 5 as you know everyting
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
with benefit of clergy overridden by the > French > Royal Prerogative


Explanation:
I beg unholy forgiveness for hijacking two Anglo-centric doctrines that sprang to mind on reading the other contributions.

Obiter and without wishing to names-drop, the late Sir Christopehr Staughton QC - when President of the Probate, Family and Admiralty Division of the High Court - once confided to me in London that he thought legal translation and court interpreting were 'the hardest legal skills to master'.


Example sentence(s):
  • The Diocese of Southwark v Coker [1998] ICR 14 .....concerned an assistant curate of a Church of England parish who argued that he could be sacked only by God. the judge, Sir Christopher Staughton QC, claimed couldn't call such Deity as a witness.
  • In Eng law, the benefit of clergy (Law Latin: privilegium clericale) was originally a provision by which clergymen could claim that they were outside the jurisdiction of the secular courts and be tried instead in an ecclesiastical court under canon law

    Reference: http://www.jstor.org/stable/139057?seq=1
    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy
Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 359
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes, thank you for these examples. Very helpful indeed!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  AllegroTrans: Anglo-centric or not, this perfectly describes the situation; please instruct Sir C. Staughton's successors to procure an immediate 300% pay rise for all legal translators
2 hrs
  -> Thx, Chris. I'll mention such to his two daughters. Sir Chris, presiding over an Admiralty Greek shipwreck case - as an ex-French + Classics teacher - had been full of admiration for the court interpreter who battled with sailors' dialects from 6 islands.

neutral  Daryo: it's not exactly "overriden" - this priest is still tried in an ecclesiastical court [see: par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait] with only the participation of the King's representative [le lieutenant criminel]
1 day 6 hrs
  -> Well, now you - and perhaps others - have learned what 'benefit of clergy' means.
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
tried under Royal privilege/preroragative


Explanation:
The "privilege" here appears to have been that of the French monarch, as intimated by Adrian.

Otherwise, iof I read correctly, a member of the clergy could claim benefit of clergy


AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:33
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1355
Notes to answerer
Asker: I haven't quite settled on how to parse this idea into my final translation, but this is extremely helpful. Thank you!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Daryo: unless the reader knows what "l'Official de Paris" is , this can be extremely misleading as the only "Royal privilege/preroragative" of the King it to participate in the proceedings of the ecclesiastical court", not to act on its own!!!
23 hrs
  -> blah blah blah

agree  SafeTex: This was indeed the best answer. Well done!
1 day 27 mins
  -> Thanks but I mispelled prerogative; have corrected it via the glossary entry
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -1
this being a special case including secular authorities (involving secular authorities' privilege) )


Explanation:
this being a special case including secular authorities

this being a special case that must be also refered to secular / royal authorities

this being a special case where secular / royal authorities have the privilege (/special right) to be involved


CL5 regarding the meaning

OTOH a short translation that would make sense in the today's mindset is far from obvious.

explanation is there

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3FFDAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&ne...

look at the occurrences of "à la charge du cas privilegié" in one of them is a comment explaining its meaning.

that explains also why "le lieutenant criminel" - a secular / royal authority was involved in the proceedings lead by "l'Official de Paris" an ecclesiastical judge


• OFFICIAL, n. m.

T. de Droit canon. Juge ecclésiastique délégué par l'évêque pour exercer en son nom la juridiction contentieuse. L'official de Paris, l'official de Lyon, etc. On le cita devant l'official.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/official

malfaicteur
--Malfaicteur, Maleficus.
--Un malfaicteur attaint et convaincu de cas digne de mort, à qui on a seulement sauvé la vie, Reus capitalis rei compertus, cui vsura tantum lucis seruata est, B.
--Un malfaicteur estant en franchise, Reus loci sanctitate fretus, Budaeus.
--Empescher que l'on ne face justice de grans malfaicteurs, Homines facinorosos ac perditos legibus eripere, Bud.
--Un malfaicteur renvoyé à son juge d'eglise, Reus verticis initiati patrocinio seruatus, B.
--Malfaicteurs renvoyez à leur juge d'eglise, à la charge du cas privilegié, avec defenses de ne les eslargir jusques à ce qu'il soit decidé dudit cas, Rei, cum exceptione selecti criminis relegati ad pontificiam cognitionem: ita vt authorati praeiudicio Curiae aut cuiusuis praefecti prouinciae in reatu semper esse censeatur regij criminis ergo, quoad eo nomine in eos vindicatum sit, Budaeus.
--Un rusé malfaicteur, Un fin paillard, Un mauvais garson, Reus veterator, Bud.
Malfaicteurs vagabons, Rei delati sine re, sine sede, sine lare, Homines


https://portail.atilf.fr/cgi-bin/getobject_?p.4:56./var/artf...


La Cour a rendu et rend le prisonnier à son Evesque pour luy faire son procez sur le delict commun, à la charge du cas privilegié, etc. Curia reum non suae ditionis, translatitij criminis ergo ad pontificium iudicium relegandum censuit. Quod vero ad praecipuum admissum regiumque attinet. B.

https://fr.thefreedictionary.com/rendre

https://documents.univ-toulouse.fr/150NDG/PPN099889641.pdf

here is an explanation about what exactly are "cas privilegiés" (copy-paste won't work):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4f9BxHlWOqoC&pg=PA217&lp...

note that it's linked with "livrer au bras séculier"

Livrer au bras séculier"
Signification Faire appel à la justice du seigneur ou du roi, la justice du siècle, au lieu de la justice ecclésiastique, celle de l'Eglise. Traduction anglais : delivered to the secular.

which is AGAIN about conflict of jurisdiction between royal (secular / temporal) courts and ecclesiastical courts






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Note added at 6 hrs (2021-02-24 06:53:33 GMT)
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Recueil tiré des procédures criminelles faites par plusieurs officiaux, et ...
By Pierre De Combes
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3FFDAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&ne...


Recueil des actes, titres et mémoires concernant les affaires du clergé de ...
By Pierre Le Merre
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4f9BxHlWOqoC&pg=PA217&lp...

Traitez des droits et libertez de l'Eglise Gallicane. Tome premier ..., Volume 1
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8oU_mFKb0EcC&pg=PA328&lp...
etc



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2021-02-24 06:55:16 GMT)
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https://documents.univ-toulouse.fr/150NDG/PPN099889641.pdf


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Note added at 1 day 17 hrs (2021-02-25 17:59:27 GMT) Post-grading
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Special addition for the hard of seeing (what's staring at you!), or about methods - like using ALL availalble information:

"...et pour le curér envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait et parfait sur la faute et abus par lui commis en sa charge en la célébration dudit pretendu marriage, sans consentement et hors la présence des parents, et sans publication des bans, à la charge du cas privilegié, à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel..."

envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait
=
even though it's the French from the year 1607, it's still clear that this prest will be judged by "l'Official de Paris"

ALSO

à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel
=
there is someone whose title is "le lieutenant criminel" that will be present "to assist", NOT to "to lead"

NOW, the one leading the proceddings being "l'Official de Paris", let's see what CNRTL has to say about it:

OFFICIAL, n. m. T. de Droit canon. Juge ecclésiastique délégué par l'évêque pour exercer en son nom la juridiction contentieuse. L'official de Paris, l'official de Lyon, etc. On le cita devant l'official.

So... this would be a Royal court judging this priest?

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:33
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 196

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: Very wordy answer and confidence level OTTT
10 hrs
  -> the confidence level is about the meaning of the whole phrase as used in this kind of texts at that time // if you take the trouble to check the references that can't be copied, you might find that it's very far from being "OTT"?

disagree  SafeTex: You give this 5? It's not secular as the case is heard is a special Royal Court. And once again, the English is clumsy and long-wnded.
1 day 10 hrs
  -> yes, for damn good reasons (like research?)/"the case is heard is a special Royal Court"??? ST: "....envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés ..." => just check for yourself WHO EXACTLY would be "l'Official de Paris" around AD 1607!
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