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Russian to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. / politics
Russian term or phrase:православный чекизм
This is about the views of Yuri Levada. I know what the two words mean, but I don't understand how the phrase is being used today. I assume that православный does refer to the Orthodox Church, not a generic usage as in the English "orthodox economics." But Orthodox Chekism is quite incomprehensible to an English-language reader. Does it actually mean a combination of Orthodoxy and Chekism? I think I will need a footnote, and that's what I need help with -- the meaning as used today -- not a translation of the words.
Поиски своего места в мире, формирование новой коллективной идентичности (старания ельцинских идеологов изобразить «русскую идею» образца 1997 года) закончились эклектическим традиционализмом, соединившим **православный чекизм** и обрядоверие («духовные скрепы») с антизападничеством, русский национализм («возрождение Великой державы»)—с общей дегуманизацией общества и публичной жизни, с враждебностью самому духу рационализма и европейского Просвещения.
Explanation: I realize it doesn't say anything about a "veneer," but when I've encountered this phrase, the "чекизм" has been presented as fundamental, with Orthodoxy added on top as a new ideology or belief-structure (replacing the Communism of the previous decades).
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2017-02-06 17:00:17 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Or you could make it an "admixture" of Russian Orthodoxy, rather than a veneer. Although that gets confusing, given the participle соединившим before the phrase. And, by the way, how are you translating обрядоверие?
Maybe you could keep the ROC part as an adjective:
... ended up in a kind of eclectic traditionalism, uniting a now Russian Orthodoxy-tinged cult of the security services and commitment to rituals [liturgy?] ("spiritual ties"), with an anti-Westernizing [form of] Russian nationalism ("rebirth of a Great Power")...
If you did it that way, perhaps you could avoid having to write a footnote.
Thanks Rachel, and everyone else. Sofia's link was esp. useful. I don't think putting "KGB" in there is a good idea, because every educated En-speaking person (there are some!) knows the KGB no longer exists, and it makes it sound Soviet. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Susan's questions are always very interesting. They make you think about stuff. I'm sorry that there were some "personal evaluations" involved and that I couldn't give an answer but the whole experience was very informative and useful. Thank you.
I think you're mistaken in categorizing/dismissing the original phrase as an oxymoron. Even if it were, then the translation should be, too. On your point 1, I didn't say "KGB," I proposed "security services." (On the first pass, I thought maybe "Soviet" should be included to hint at the roots of Cheka, but changed my mind. On point 2: it is not talking about what believers believe as such, but about the admixture of ROC rituals into the outlook and practice of those who partake in, or glorify, the chekist tradition.
As for whether or not such a category does or should exist, I know that it does. "I know it to be true; it happened on this ball; I trod the ship; I knew the crew; I have seen and talked with Steelkilt since the death of Radney."
But now I see Susan's note, and will bow to that and be quiet.
"Почему культ?" Because in the original there's an "-ism" (-изм). The text is not a sociological analysis of the careers of these people, it's a shorthand reference to an ideology, a belief-structure. To my mind, "cult" is a good way in English to translate such an -ism.
that we end this thread. It's getting more into personal evaluations about the situation in Russia (politics, religion, etc.). I appreciate all the input for a term which is obviously rather loaded, but I think what I ended up with, from all your contributions, will do the job for this translation.
it's neither. 1. there's no KGB cult. not anymore. not today. not in Russia. 2. religion here is not just a "veneer". many people are sure they do beleive. but actually it's not a religion (any), but a mixture of heresy, sectarianism and I don't know what. 3. regardless of any myths, the term "православный чекизм" is a pure oxymoron, i.e. the words are actually incompatible.
So, your translation is about cult, veneer, and it is not an oxymoron. this is why it is amazing.
Почему культ? По моему скромному мнению, просто у власти все те же коммунисты и КГБ, только после 1991 г. они уже работают с вместе с церковью, так как религия - это самое гениальное изобретение для контроля людских масс. Там даже в тексте сразу идет обрядоверие и духовные скрепы...
In the notes to my suggestion, I proposed something other than "veneer," because I also don't think that "чекизм, прикрытый православием" is the point. My follow-up formulation was "a now Russian Orthodoxy-tinged cult of the security services."
But I also don't think that Susan's text is talking about a political or operational alliance between former chekisty and ROC prelates (even if such an alliance does exist). I think Susan's text is talking not about that, but rather about an ideology, an outlook that unites glorification of the state security services with ostentatious commitment to Russian Orthodox rituals and practices.
@Rachel Douglas Спасибо за пояснение своей точки зрения Возможно Вы и правы. Юлиан Семенов отошел в прошлое, но добрая треть, если не больше, современных российских сериалов посвящена разнообразным защитникам отечества (героические спецслужбы, военные). Поскольку сам отношусь к такому скептически, не рассматривал это явление с точки зрения воспитания культа служб ГБ. И бывший Союз и нынешняя Россия жили и живут с культом внешнего врага, от которого нужно защищаться, это конечно должно быть оправданием и мощной армии и тех же секретных служб... Но мне кажется, что в любом случае, речь не о культе чекизма, прикрытого православием, а о чекистах (бывших?) офицерах служб госбезопасности, которые пришли к власти и теперь на пару с православной церковью вершат судьбы людей, большинство из них похоже не только не нуждается в культе, а наоборот старается не "светится" без надобности. Под госбезопасностью имел в виду именно службы госбезопасности
Наконец, по аналогии: большевизм - это не культ большевиков, а власть большевиков чекизм - власть чекистов
Crockodile, is "amazing" supposed to be good, or bad? Amazing as in, "what a great translation," or is it, "You must be out of your mind to pick that one" - ?
Igor, I think that "the cult of state security" is precisely what one should call "чекизм". That book title I gave Susan as a reference was quite apt. And in the context in question, the subject is clearly not "state security" as such, but the cult of the state security services, glorifying them, as an ideology. Think of the Soviet-era popular-culture cult of state security, heroic chekisty, etc., in, say, Yulian Semyonov's novels. ... But in the post-Soviet era, the cult of state security has taken on Russian Orthodox trappings. If you look up not "чекизм", but "православный чекист", you can see the names typically associated with this notion: Yakunin, Malofeyev (as in the link Sofia gave), Strelkov (Girkin). Well, and not only them.
@Sofia Gutkin, http://www.odnako.org/blogs/pravoslavniy-chekizm-ne-raven-ch... Все имеют право сказать свое мнение, пока не говорил что вполностью не согласен с др. ответами, уважаю мнения всех и здесь разные мнения, все отличается от ваше, и мое мнение такое, если переведем как "Orthodox" то ограничиваемся лишь религием, но не только Orthodox, но другие ценности в обществе, как традиция, наследие, и другие ценности использован (если можно так выразить). пока никакое ограничение нету насчет свобода мнения, хотя вы этого не хотите, мнения разные, из этого рождается правда! И даже неправильные ответы будут основанием найти правильный ответ. Не думайте, что все должен думать как вы, мы разные люди с разными мнениями, если так был бы как вы думаете, тогда не надо был бы дискуссия, разногласия которая ведет к прогрессу.
Susan, I just read this interview with a businessman, who talks about his Orthodox faith. Reference: http://www.forbes.ru/forbeslife/292319-konstantin-malofeev-n... On page 2, he mentions "православный чекизм" and it seems to support the idea that it is people who used to work in the USSR's secret services and are now devout Christians and regular church goers. Hope this helps!
Вы все гнете свою линию, а другие люди обсуждают значение всей фразы. I am sorry to say that you are clearly in the minority here, everyone else thinks that it _is_ related to the Orthodox Church, and if you read the other comments in the thread, it makes a lot of sense. Russia "resurrected" the Orthodox Church but it has become yet another way to control the people.
Here no need to use "Orthodox" in translation, I am sure about it, if it is православный in Russian, it does not mean that it should always be Orthodox in target. В таких текстах, прямой, дословной перевод не поможет, with the word "православный" here to mean- completely different, broader meaning than Orthodox, even if it is connected with Orthodox. Here more reasonable to say, that "православный" means "ideology" in general, namely, idle talk about Russian culture, heritage (national handicraft), rich history, greatness of the nation, antiquarian good things etc. for hiding their real face from nation and attract their attention. and we should not confuse "православный чекизм" c "Чекистск. православием". Between them there is big difference, whole system changed after collapse of USSR. So "православный чекизм" without Soviet and Stalin, "Чекистск. православие". this is Soviet and Stalin era. As an example: After Soviet union broke up, many post Soviet countries changed its policy and even history. Let's take -Uzbekistan as an example, instead of Lenin monument, they erected monument to Timurlane. The whole system changed, ideology changed, people had to forget about the pas
после прочтения интервью с представителем церкви о православном чекизме, мне кажется, что речь идет о том, что после краха коммунизма ничего в сущности не изменилось, только больше в церковь стали ходить и стучать лбами в пол. Типа как в фильме Левиафан, если помните. Думаю, что Сьюзан права - ей надо использовать Orthodox Chekism и сноску, в которой объяснить значение.
Продублировал информацию Дениса Шепелева Вполне вероятно, что авторы термина имели в виду то, что после краха коммунистической идеологии люди у власти, имеющие непосредственное отошение к КГБ - наследнику ЧК, аккуратно ее заменили на более привычную идеологию православия сдобрив национализмом, и руководство церкви на это вполне согласилось и поддержало этих людей
может объяснить, что это словосочетание означает? Насколько я понял, это довольно актуальный журналисткий термин, а не выдумка автора этой статьи. Однозначного определения этого термина, однако, я не нашел. Вот это определение звучит наиболее правдоподобно: "Знак принадлежности к обществу – деревянные афонские четки на запястье. В сентябре журналисты крупно засняли их на руке вице-губернатора Лавленцева. То, что вся питерская властная элита – члены одного чуть ли не тайного общества, наводит на мысли. У нас даже термин такой появился – «православный чекизм». Все они часто выезжают в Грецию на святую гору Афон, и ходят слухи, что там в уединенной обстановке решаются не только вопросы веры."
Думаю, что следует прежде всего разобраться, что означает "православный чекизм", так как мне кажется, что он не имеет ничего общего ни с Russian Orthodox, ни с Chekism как таковыми.
The Russian language is a rich and difficult to master language, there are too many words and expressions that are difficult to translate word by word (literally). Gooogle won't help -V.I. Lenin Complete works in 55 volumes, Moscow. (It is a joke (time for joke), one can't find in the books)
gets a few hits on Google doesn't really mean it means anything (well, except that the translators didn't quite do their job right in the English-language sources), or at the very least that it means the same thing for everyone. This is but the national adoration of all kinds of "-isms". They make one sound so much smarter. Heck, almost a scientist even, without the need to study and understand calculus. These are, basically, Russian spiritual brethren of "safe space," "microaggression" and other such profound new terminology on this side of the pond. That's all there is to it.
I also think I remember something about V.I. Lenin saying about kazhdaya kukharka having to be able to take full advantage of Google, no?:))
Ilan Rubin (X)
Russian Federation
Google
17:00 Feb 6, 2017
Gives about 20 odd discreet references that just repeat themselves on different sites, and half of them are offering various definitions. As V.I. Lenin said, don't believe everything you read in the Internet
In my understanding, here "православный" is not Orthodox, "православный" is used here in the meaning of "Russians, Russian nation, with their traditions and way of life, viewpoint, which characterizes them" О русском народе, его обычаях и образе жизни Orthodox would be wrong here. Examples: Православный царь.=Russian tsar Носить длинную православную бороду. Православный народ любил ярмарки.=Russians, Russian people like(d) trade fairs etc. Version: православный чекизм-Russian chekism- Russian cult of State Security- Russian chekist ideology
I don't agree that православный чекизм is an incoherent expression entirely made up by this particular author. It seems to be already relatively widespread in Russian-language sources (1,650 hits for "православный чекизм" on Google).
Thanks, Susan. Unfortunately, I can't find any English-language sources that would link the two components together. But on the 'Orthodoxy' side, here's an interesting piece where ideas of 'revival,' 'Resurrection of Russia,' 'Spiritual Rebirth,' 'collapse of ideology,' 'dead-end of civilization' and such might be of help to you in concocting your footnote to explain the term: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_sera...
As I said, I know what the words mean: I know what the Cheka was, I know what the Russian Orthodox Church is! Nathalie, your summary of your understanding is helpful. I wonder if native Russian speakers can confirm that. It can't just be "secret police statism," as the "totalizer" link has it, since that leaves out the "Orthodox" part.
http://www.interpretermag.com/totalizer/ "Having failed all the reforms he undertook at the beginning, his rule ended up with “Russian Orthodox Chekism” [secret police statism]."
I understand it as a kind of mix between a new kind of totalitarian ideology (advocating total control by the secret political police) and references to Orthodox religious dogma used in an attempt to revive ideas of a 'great spiritual mission' for Russia, the whole thing being made possible by the collapse of any kind of generally-believed ideology in Russia today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism Chekism (from Cheka, the first Soviet secret police organization) is a term to describe the situation in the Soviet Union and contemporary Russia, where the secret political police control everything in society
Может поможет? В "Православном Чекизме"(с) (в отличие от "Чекистского Православия"(с) собственность народу не принадлежит. Наоборот, православие (а также болтовня об особой миссии, великих корнях, народных промыслах и прочей антикварной благодати) используется для наведения тени на плетень и отвлечения внимания народа от вывернутых у него карманов.
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Answers
44 mins confidence:
Russian Orthodox police state
Explanation: Frankly I don't think it means anything. The author sounds like a typical "man in the pub" using big words incoherently. But as you have to translate it I say use this and move on.
Ilan Rubin (X) Russian Federation Local time: 13:33 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yeah. And I'm only on the first page out of 14,000 words. :-( I thought this guy was supposed to be some sort of scientist.
[Soviet] cult of state security with a Russian Orthodox veneer
Explanation: I realize it doesn't say anything about a "veneer," but when I've encountered this phrase, the "чекизм" has been presented as fundamental, with Orthodoxy added on top as a new ideology or belief-structure (replacing the Communism of the previous decades).
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2017-02-06 17:00:17 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Or you could make it an "admixture" of Russian Orthodoxy, rather than a veneer. Although that gets confusing, given the participle соединившим before the phrase. And, by the way, how are you translating обрядоверие?
Maybe you could keep the ROC part as an adjective:
... ended up in a kind of eclectic traditionalism, uniting a now Russian Orthodoxy-tinged cult of the security services and commitment to rituals [liturgy?] ("spiritual ties"), with an anti-Westernizing [form of] Russian nationalism ("rebirth of a Great Power")...
If you did it that way, perhaps you could avoid having to write a footnote.
Rachel Douglas United States Local time: 06:33 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 39
Grading comment
Thanks Rachel, and everyone else. Sofia's link was esp. useful. I don't think putting "KGB" in there is a good idea, because every educated En-speaking person (there are some!) knows the KGB no longer exists, and it makes it sound Soviet.
Explanation: In fact, I would use all three of those attributes here if I could, except it cramps my artistic style:)
You know me, Susan, I am all for translating the meaning rather than raw verbiage, and I think the above describes just that in this case. I do agree with Ilan though, this does not deserve any deep pondering, or even a footnote. Just pick what you think sounds best and move on. Good riddance.
Oh, and yeah, they all think they are "some sort of scientist". Yeah, right...
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Well, of course I wouldn't, well, OK, maybe just a little bit, OK, because really, what do these lawyers know?:) And for the record, I LOVE my meds, especially the fact that they come in liquid form:)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2017-02-06 18:04:07 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Well, if that's a certain federal judge in Seattle...:)
The Misha Local time: 06:33 Works in field Native speaker of: Russian PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Misha, you would NEVER use this approach to translate those legal documents of yours. Even you have to admit that there is such a thing as "register" in translation. Or maybe you don't, but maybe because you're off your meds. :-)
Asker: Or would you translate "судья" as "so-called judge" in a legal brief?
Examples: Православный царь.=Russian tsar Носить длинную православную бороду. Православный народ любил ярмарки.=Russians, Russian people like(d) trade fairs etc.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2017-02-06 19:01:05 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Yes, that was my first opinion, as an option, my second opinion is that Russian cult means "православный", avoiding the use of the word "Orthodox"
Turdimurod Rakhmanov Kyrgyzstan Local time: 16:33 Native speaker of: Uzbek, Kirghiz PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: I don't see Kuznetsov online, but the Efremov dictionary says this is an archaic usage: "устар. Относящийся к русскому народу, его образу жизни и обычаям." http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/efremova/223937/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9
Explanation: думаю, проще надо. KGB уже общеизвестн.
crockodile Russian Federation Local time: 13:33 Native speaker of: Russian
7 hrs confidence:
KGB, Orthodoxy, and...
Explanation: Можно упростить замысловатый русизм для англоязычного зрителя. Ведь по сути дела, "православный чекизм" и есть соединение этих двух институтов: КГБ и церкви. Буду настаивать на употреблении аббревиатуры КГБ вне зависимости от того на каком из вариантов Вы остановитесь - англиканский собеседник имеет отличное представление и, главное, ощущение о данной службе
fedarchuka United States Local time: 06:33 Native speaker of: Russian, Belarusian
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