en su debe

English translation: on the debit side

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:en su debe
English translation:on the debit side
Entered by: Robert Forstag

16:00 Dec 11, 2017
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Journalism / Article in today’s *El País* (Spain)
Spanish term or phrase: en su debe
I have a sense of what this means here, but I have never seen “debe” used as a noun, and was curious as to how others might approach translating the term.

The term occurs in the article’s penultimate sentence:

El primer ministro también ha anticipado en su debe que no está dispuesto a tolerar dobles raseros. “No voy a aceptar la hipocresía. Voy a presentar la verdad sobre Israel sin miedo y con la cabeza bien alta”.


Here is a link to the full article:

https://elpais.com/internacional/2017/12/10/actualidad/15129...
Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 11:24
on the debit side
Explanation:
(I looked at this last night, my time, but didn't have time to develop an answer. Since then, Carol has quoted the DLE definition of "debe" as a masculine noun, which has to be the starting point.)

"Haber" and "debe" for credit and debit have been standard accounting terminology for centuries. After all, "debit" is literally "he/she owes" in Latin, which is exactly what "debe" means. The credit side of the ledger is headed "haber" and the debit side "debe". This is from an accounting textbook published this year:

"Sumar su Debe y su Haber y calcular su saldo.
Anotar un apunte en su Haber.
Anotar un apunte en su Debe."
https://books.google.es/books?id=LvMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA...

And this is from a book published in 1834:

"El Estracto razonado que presentamos [...], en el que se hallan reasumidas con la debida clasificacion todas las partidas del Balance en su Debe i en su Haber"
https://books.google.es/books?id=7jHLrDRFHg4C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA...

The metaphorical use of these terms is also long-established. It is a cliché to refer to someone having things "en su haber", and somewhat less commonly "en su debe". The former refers to achievements or acquisitions and the latter to setbacks, errors or points against. So for example this is comment on the successes and failures of Pedja Mijatovic as sporting director of Real Madrid:

"Pedja Mijatovic: dos Ligas en su haber... y muchos fichajes en su debe"
http://www.20minutos.es/deportes/noticia/mijatovic-fichajes-...

Well now, in the context of this article, on Netanyahu in Europe, this metaphorical use of accounting terms is clearly quite deliberate. The whole article is informed by such language. The first part is literally financial: it's about the claims of EU countries for financial compensation from Israel for the destruction of infrastructure they had funded in Palestinian territory. Here at the end the credit and debit ideas refer to points gained or lost by the two parties, Mogherini (for the EU) and Netanyahu, in the diplomatic process. Whether there is a subtext here related to the age-old cliché of Jewish usury is not for me to say.

So I think it it desirable to keep the metaphor. "Suma y sigue", at the start of the paragraph, often just means "And so it goes", "More of the same old same old". Here I would be tempted to keep the financial meaning: "Balance carried over".

It is not easy to see what "en su haber" and "en su debe" mean here. I think the idea may be that, first, Trump's intervention has been included by Mogherini "en su haber", to her credit, in the sense that it has strengthened her argument that recognition of Jerusalem is detrimental to Israel's security. And then perhaps Netanyahu's warning that he will not accept double standards or hypocrisy (on Europe's part) is "en su debe", to Mogherini's debit rather than his own, because it makes it more difficult for Mogherini to sustain her argument.

I'm not sure about this. The natural reading of "en su debe", in context, is to take "su" as referring to "el primer ministro", Netanyahu, but if so I don't really understand the metaphor. In any case, I think one could duck this issue by putting "on the debit side" and leaving the reader to work out whose debit side.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 16:24
Grading comment
The financial metaphor seems strange, and the last couple of sentences strike me as poorly written. I agree with you that, while “su” ought properly to refer to Netanyahu here, it likely refers to Mogherini. This then raises the question of what Juan Carlos Sanz specifically had in mind as being the adverse aspect or “debit” in question (i.e., Mogherini having to deal with what he sees as Netanyahu’s haughtiness and self-righteousness; or is he perhaps conceding that the Israeli PM’s argument might actually hold some weight?). Ambiguity abounds!

As for any possible allusion to the stereotype of Jewish usury, I can only hope that your suspicion is unfounded. The paper consistently reflects a viewpoint that is hostile towards the right of Israel’s political spectrum (though less egregiously so than was the case, say, 15 years ago). But I cannot say that I have noticed any hints of anti-Semitism in its coverage of Israel, articles on Jewish history, or references to individual Jews.

Many thanks for the clarification, Charles. And thanks to everyone else who offered suggestions and comments on this query.

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1on the debit side
Charles Davis
4as an asset
patinba
3on the other hand [at beginning of the sentence]
Muriel Vasconcellos
Summary of reference entries provided
en su debe
Carol Gullidge

Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
on the other hand [at beginning of the sentence]


Explanation:
This would set up a contrast with the previous statement (not shown).

Muriel Vasconcellos
United States
Local time: 08:24
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 52

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Francois Boye: Any reference
1 hr
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16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
on the debit side


Explanation:
(I looked at this last night, my time, but didn't have time to develop an answer. Since then, Carol has quoted the DLE definition of "debe" as a masculine noun, which has to be the starting point.)

"Haber" and "debe" for credit and debit have been standard accounting terminology for centuries. After all, "debit" is literally "he/she owes" in Latin, which is exactly what "debe" means. The credit side of the ledger is headed "haber" and the debit side "debe". This is from an accounting textbook published this year:

"Sumar su Debe y su Haber y calcular su saldo.
Anotar un apunte en su Haber.
Anotar un apunte en su Debe."
https://books.google.es/books?id=LvMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA...

And this is from a book published in 1834:

"El Estracto razonado que presentamos [...], en el que se hallan reasumidas con la debida clasificacion todas las partidas del Balance en su Debe i en su Haber"
https://books.google.es/books?id=7jHLrDRFHg4C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA...

The metaphorical use of these terms is also long-established. It is a cliché to refer to someone having things "en su haber", and somewhat less commonly "en su debe". The former refers to achievements or acquisitions and the latter to setbacks, errors or points against. So for example this is comment on the successes and failures of Pedja Mijatovic as sporting director of Real Madrid:

"Pedja Mijatovic: dos Ligas en su haber... y muchos fichajes en su debe"
http://www.20minutos.es/deportes/noticia/mijatovic-fichajes-...

Well now, in the context of this article, on Netanyahu in Europe, this metaphorical use of accounting terms is clearly quite deliberate. The whole article is informed by such language. The first part is literally financial: it's about the claims of EU countries for financial compensation from Israel for the destruction of infrastructure they had funded in Palestinian territory. Here at the end the credit and debit ideas refer to points gained or lost by the two parties, Mogherini (for the EU) and Netanyahu, in the diplomatic process. Whether there is a subtext here related to the age-old cliché of Jewish usury is not for me to say.

So I think it it desirable to keep the metaphor. "Suma y sigue", at the start of the paragraph, often just means "And so it goes", "More of the same old same old". Here I would be tempted to keep the financial meaning: "Balance carried over".

It is not easy to see what "en su haber" and "en su debe" mean here. I think the idea may be that, first, Trump's intervention has been included by Mogherini "en su haber", to her credit, in the sense that it has strengthened her argument that recognition of Jerusalem is detrimental to Israel's security. And then perhaps Netanyahu's warning that he will not accept double standards or hypocrisy (on Europe's part) is "en su debe", to Mogherini's debit rather than his own, because it makes it more difficult for Mogherini to sustain her argument.

I'm not sure about this. The natural reading of "en su debe", in context, is to take "su" as referring to "el primer ministro", Netanyahu, but if so I don't really understand the metaphor. In any case, I think one could duck this issue by putting "on the debit side" and leaving the reader to work out whose debit side.


Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 16:24
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 116
Grading comment
The financial metaphor seems strange, and the last couple of sentences strike me as poorly written. I agree with you that, while “su” ought properly to refer to Netanyahu here, it likely refers to Mogherini. This then raises the question of what Juan Carlos Sanz specifically had in mind as being the adverse aspect or “debit” in question (i.e., Mogherini having to deal with what he sees as Netanyahu’s haughtiness and self-righteousness; or is he perhaps conceding that the Israeli PM’s argument might actually hold some weight?). Ambiguity abounds!

As for any possible allusion to the stereotype of Jewish usury, I can only hope that your suspicion is unfounded. The paper consistently reflects a viewpoint that is hostile towards the right of Israel’s political spectrum (though less egregiously so than was the case, say, 15 years ago). But I cannot say that I have noticed any hints of anti-Semitism in its coverage of Israel, articles on Jewish history, or references to individual Jews.

Many thanks for the clarification, Charles. And thanks to everyone else who offered suggestions and comments on this query.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lola Mezquita Sánchez: agree
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Lola :-)
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20 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
as an asset


Explanation:
with "en su haber" as a liability.

This is the only way the article can make sense.

In accounting, an asset goes on the left (debit) side, and liabilities (credit) go on the right.

See:
Debits and Credits

After you have identified the two or more accounts involved in a business transaction, you must debit at least one account and credit at least one account.

To debit an account means to enter an amount on the left side of the account. To credit an account means to enter an amount on the right side of an account.

Here's a Tip
Debit means left
Credit means right
Generally these types of accounts are increased with a debit:

Dividends (Draws)
Expenses
Assets
Losses

You might think of D - E - A - L when recalling the accounts that are increased with a debit.

Generally the following types of accounts are increased with a credit:

Gains
Income
Revenues
Liabilities
Stockholders' (Owner's) Equity

You might think of G - I - R - L - S when recalling the accounts that are increased with a credit.

https://www.accountingcoach.com/debits-and-credits/explanati...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2017-12-12 12:29:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"on the asset side" and "on the liability side" would fit best in the translation of the article, I think.

I always remember an instructor trying with limited success to teach me accounting standing in a classroom and telling us that "debits go in the column on the window side" , which you can imagine was not a useful guide in later life.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 mins (2017-12-12 16:21:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However, if I have been able to explain the apparent inconsistency that has its origins in double entry bookkkeeping, I consider that it would be quite proper and simpler to translate your phrases as follows:

The PM has indicated, to his CREDIT, that ....

and earlier

Mogherini has considered this item as a negative item on the balance sheet

retaining the accounting language.

patinba
Argentina
Local time: 12:24
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 40
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Pat, It seemed to me that your original proposal was the complete opposite of what Charles has (to my mind, correctly) suggested. But your final comment (which I only saw after grading the question, seems consistent with Charles’ view - even though I think that the original is too ambiguous to warrant the translation you suggest). Please accept my belated thanks for your input.

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Reference comments


1 hr peer agreement (net): +2
Reference: en su debe

Reference information:
debe - Definición - WordReference.com
www.wordreference.com/definicion/debe
debe. m. com. Columna del libro de cuentas que comprende las cantidades que se cargan al titular: su debe era tan alto que inmovilizaron su cartilla. Conjunto de los errores o deudas de alguien: la gerencia tiene en su debe una nueva desatención a los trabajadores. Diccionario de la lengua española © 2005 ...

....

Not that I always rely on Wordreference, but the Diccionario ought to be reliable! This corroborates Phil's "discredit". Although I can't make sense of it in this context!

Carol Gullidge
United Kingdom
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  neilmac: IMHO the most economical option is to leave it out of the translation.
15 hrs
  -> thanks Neil!
agree  Charles Davis: This is where we have to start. I wouldn't leave it out.
15 hrs
  -> thanks Charles!
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