| Pagine: < [1 2 3] > | Are we still a translators workplace? Iniziatore argomento: Balasubramaniam L.
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:50
Da Spagnolo a Inglese
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| They've re-appeared! | Nov 20, 2006 |
Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
Sorry, Mediamatrix, but could you let me know which postings were 'squashed'?
All postings related to this topic were vetted whenever needed.
Hi Evert,
The posting I referred to have reappeared.
Maybe there was a technical problem somewhere ... ? (I see there have been problems with 'missing' questions on Kudoz today, too...).
So, my apologies for 'jumping the gun'!
If you want to squash my 'What happened to dialogue?' post, your reply and this answer from me - which are all off-topic - , that's OK with me
MediaMatrix
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Paesi Bassi
Local time: 11:50
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Afrikaans
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| Honest versus dishonest dialogue | Nov 20, 2006 |
mediamatrix wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I have on occasion read and replied to posts assuming that the person is a translator, only to find out later that I had been wasting my time on what was actually someone's uninformed opinion. And how better to inform others about your own profession than by responding to the ill-founded opinions of those on the fringe of this activity who don't share your own values?
How would I know the opinion is ill-founded, if I assume that the opinion is one that reflects a translators' experience? These forums are of little use to me if I have to second-guess every comment made in response to one of my posts.
I have nothing against non-translators talking together with translators, but we all make certain assumptions about the people we interact with on these forums -- we assume that we are not a bunch of strangers with nothing in common.
I suggest that translators (or those who want to be translators, and who have therefore registered at ProZ.com as "translators") should be indicated underneath their photo or logo when they post in the forums.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:20
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Hindi
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AVVIO ARGOMENTO SITE LOCALIZER | The real problem is when they threaten to come centre-stage | Nov 20, 2006 |
mediamatrix wrote:
...It is a sad day when 'specialists' think that their own viewpoint should not be challenged by those working on the fringe of their specialization.
Dear mediamatrix,
The problem arises when they refuse to stay in the fringe and jump centre-stage of our profession.
When a profession is robust, clearly defined and unified, cross-fertilization of ideas from other related professions can be a boon, but when it is one like ours that is fighting a dire battle for survival, obfuscation of its core ideas by externals can prove to be fatal.
[Edited at 2006-11-20 16:49]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:20
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Hindi
+ ...
AVVIO ARGOMENTO SITE LOCALIZER | I second this idea | Nov 20, 2006 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I suggest that translators (or those who want to be translators, and who have therefore registered at ProZ.com as "translators") should be indicated underneath their photo or logo when they post in the forums.
Labelling of this nature would be a good idea in my opinion for it would enable pin-pointing the motives behind opinions expressed here.
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Nicole Schnell
Stati Uniti
Local time: 02:50
Da Inglese a Tedesco
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In memoriam
Balasubramaniam wrote:
but when it is one like ours that is fighting a dire battle for survival
In this case I would stop bashing the younger, less experienced colleagues "on the fringe" in your language pair as they might approach you, asking for help and probably even paying up out of pocket, just to get the job done.
| | | | Irene N
Stati Uniti
Local time: 04:50
Da Inglese a Russo
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| Some thoughts | Nov 20, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
In this case I would stop bashing the younger, less experienced colleagues "on the fringe" in your language pair as they might approach you, asking for help and probably even paying up out of pocket, just to get the job done.
For one, Balasubramaniam, do I understand you correctly that you mean people whose sole livelihood depends on translation income?
If so, then I share your and Nicole's concern regarding "academicians" or professionals-non-translators who could become hazardous:-) as they go along destroying young generation of talented yet inexperienced translators by simply denying them a chance. Just like managers in a corporation, they expect flawless performance and as little headache as possible, they obviously prefer readily available "lean and mean grilling machines", they are so deep in their trade that they just might have forgotten that the translator can not possibly be in it just as deep and h/h can not wait for the work flow exclusively within their degree to feed their families. Perfect writing skills, perfect command of both languages, perfect detailed knowledge of every aspect of a multi-subject document, perfect this, perfect that... I already feel like I'm eating somebody's else bread... I only have one question left - why would we need editors at all then? Stylistic touches? Hello from the real world - the clients might only care about the bottom line. They are no more literate than most of us but obviously much better in money-making department:-) I, for one, would have certainly been left out in such case, meaning legal and technical subjects. I worship my editors, all with great translation experience, and I realize that where I live they have raised and trained a whole new generation of translators in generic and certain specific fields, and we now keep conveying our experience to the younger guys with modest practical knowledge but a great potential. This is what editors are for, among other things. They even know how to make great writers, they can also kill them on a spot...
Yes, I do believe that there are certain aspects that are regarded differently by "pure" translators and qualified specialists doing side jobs. That said, I certainly agree that denying the value of specialists in the field would be plain stupid, but I too would be very much interested to know whether the opinion have been expressed by someone who, like myself, have been sweating their guts out for the right to be recognized as professional translators with all the competition, logistics, sales, marketing, self-study, sleepless nights, first day in front of a 50-people crowd, minus $20 in the bank account, cries for help etc components. Just for the heck of it.
No, of course I do not think that this site is "for translators only", we all benefit greatly from professional knowledge, but I'm sure the perception might and likely be different in certain cases and I'm very curious about it:-).
Regards,
Irene
Full-time freelance translator-interpreter for 16 years.
Edited at 2006-11-20 22:22]
[Edited at 2006-11-21 01:51]
| | | | Patricia Lane
Francia
Local time: 11:50
Da Francese a Inglese
+ ...
| I've read this whole post twice | Nov 20, 2006 |
And admit to being a bit non-plussed. I surely will attract wrath for some of these thoughts but debate is always good if it is conducted with respect and sensitivity.
These are just some thoughts or questions that flew through my mind in reading these contributions --
- History teaches us that it is when states become weak that more and more control/restriction/monitoring/whathaveyou takes place. This contributes often to the downfall of that state. If the translatin... See more And admit to being a bit non-plussed. I surely will attract wrath for some of these thoughts but debate is always good if it is conducted with respect and sensitivity.
These are just some thoughts or questions that flew through my mind in reading these contributions --
- History teaches us that it is when states become weak that more and more control/restriction/monitoring/whathaveyou takes place. This contributes often to the downfall of that state. If the translating profession is weak, undervalued, poorly defined, insufficiently respected and so on (perceptions I tend to agree with in many respects), then is it in the interest of this profession to further narrow, restrict, define, exclude, and to flip into isolationist self-protect mode?
- I noticed only two examples provided concerning what is actually being referred to in non-translating-professionals' potential influence on debates here, the one about editors and the one about the translation from a rare language into English. Here I agree with MediaMatrix and IreneN who bless good editors, they can be a writer and a translator's best ally and source of assistance. Granted, I don't read all the postings here (free time?) but I would appreciate being enlighted concerning "honest versus dishonest dialogue" examples when "not real translators" (my quotes) "threaten to come center-stage".
- How is a profession defined: by its knowledge? its tools? its methods? its strict or not so strict parameters? its responsibilities? its output (deliverables)? Is the translation profession today the same as it was say 50 years ago? Think about it, what has changed? What brought those changes? How have they affected the profession (positively or negatively)? Translators dabble in DTP for example, couldn't do that before, should they now by these definitions? Should graphic designers strive to prevent translators from responding to client needs if they choose to and are able to do so?
- I was having a chat the other day with one of the office holders at the SFT. She was telling me of a young fellow she knows who is barely out of college and apparently is one of the most talented translators she has ever come across. In light of some of the definitions here about what makes a "real" or "not real" translator, this fellow would be more than likely plunked into the second category. There is training, there is talent. Talent that gets training and/or experience develops wings. Training, no matter how assiduous, without talent just acquires solid competence.
- Aside from competence or inborn talent, what defines a "real translator" from a fake one? "What is real?" makes me think of the Velveteen Rabbit... I know full time translators whose work quality leaves to be desired and occasional ones (they would be fake ones here I suppose) who turn out fantastic work. Must one have a degree (issue often debated)? Must one pursue this full time full life to be considered "real"? We live in an era, thank goodness, where contrary to our elders, we can have several professions - concurrently, sequentially, or back and forth. That is such an empowering and enriching reality! Should we be pre-empted from being able to leverage that intellectual wealth and experience?
Excluding the unprofessional dilettante type of course, I fear that setting protective barriers around the profession in order to strengthen it and preserve it will only hurt it in the long run. Caste systems, discriminations, and exclusions of most sorts do have perverse unintended consequences...
My two cents -- I'll read the possible backlash with my morning coffee, it is late here.
Cheers,
Patricia ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:20
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Hindi
+ ...
AVVIO ARGOMENTO SITE LOCALIZER | All that I am arguing for is... | Nov 21, 2006 |
... in forums like ours where people from various professions gather together, it will be useful to know what exactly their professional background is, so that we can more properly evaluate their remarks and comments.
It is just a case of providing the right context. We translators, I am sure, know the importance of context.
[Edited at 2006-11-21 03:39]
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| I just finished a translation | Nov 21, 2006 |
for a bank. They said in the translation that the usual means of influencing people's opinions are no longer adequate and that they want to get their "customer satisfaction staff" to write contributions to forums and blogs in their professional capacity or to set up a forum on the issue sponsored by the bank. Thinking about this, I would like to know if someone has a vested interest in what they are writing so I support the idea of adding a label to the writer's post. E.g. freelance translator, ... See more for a bank. They said in the translation that the usual means of influencing people's opinions are no longer adequate and that they want to get their "customer satisfaction staff" to write contributions to forums and blogs in their professional capacity or to set up a forum on the issue sponsored by the bank. Thinking about this, I would like to know if someone has a vested interest in what they are writing so I support the idea of adding a label to the writer's post. E.g. freelance translator, agency owner, new to the business, employed by major industry player (such as SDL). It would help us assess where the person is coming from and is relatively common on other forums.
Gillian ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:20
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Hindi
+ ...
AVVIO ARGOMENTO SITE LOCALIZER | Am I doing this? | Nov 21, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
In this case I would stop bashing the younger, less experienced colleagues "on the fringe" in your language pair as they might approach you, asking for help and probably even paying up out of pocket, just to get the job done.
Are you implying that I am currently "bashing the younger, less experienced colleagues on the fringe in my language pair?"
If so, could you kindly englighten me on what basis you have arrived at this interesting conclusion?
| | | | RobinB
Stati Uniti
Local time: 04:50
Da Tedesco a Inglese
| Dire battles | Nov 21, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote: but when it is one like ours that is fighting a dire battle for survival
That sounds exciting. Please tell us more. Against whom are fighting? Why is the battle "dire"? And what's this about "survival"?
These aren't trick questions. And I ask only because the "direst" battles I find myself fighting relate to the seemingly never-ending struggle to get translators to understand that a crucial element of their skillset is the ability to write properly. And I very much have the feeling there that my back's against the wall...
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:50
Da Spagnolo a Inglese
+ ...
| Moving the goalposts... | Nov 21, 2006 |
The basic question you asked in your first post, Balasubramaniam, was:
To what extent should their (people from other professions) views prevail over the views of translators?
That is the question to which I have already stated my point of view, viz. that any professional should be open to dialogue - and indeed welcome it.
In your latest post, picking up an idea floated by Samuel, you write:
All that I am arguing for is...
... in forums like ours where people from various professions gather together, it will be useful to know what exactly their professional background is, so that we can more properly evaluate their remarks and comments.
That, I suggest, is a totally different question.
And it begs another question: How would you, Balasubramaniam, like to be labelled yourself? - computer boffin, writer, translator, copywriter, poet, .... ? Your profile shows you to have been all of these in your busy professional life!
And would it solve your 'problem' if my name here were followed by 'translator' - when I've already stated that translation currently accounts for only around 5% of my time, whereas it consumed 120% of a normal working week, 25 years ago? Or would you insist that I label myself 'media consultant', or 'technical writer'?
Or - coming back to the gist of your first post - would you simply want me thrown off this forum altogether?
MediaMatrix
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:20
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Hindi
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AVVIO ARGOMENTO SITE LOCALIZER | A report from your neighbourhood war-correspondent | Nov 21, 2006 |
RobinB wrote:
That sounds exciting. Please tell us more. Against whom are fighting? Why is the battle "dire"? And what's this about "survival"?
Report from the first front.
No one seems to have an understanding of what exactly is meant by translation. The general impression is that anyone with a smattering of two languages can translate the Bible.
So we have a huge influx of people in our profession who know next to nothing about translation. No wonder editors have few hairs left on their heads; these "translators" generate so much work for them.
And this creates the next problem. All this correcting poor translations gives editors a big ego boost and they begin to think they can define and pontificate over the translation profession!
The second front.
With CAT tools gaining perfection every day, translation rates have tumbled down to abysmal levels, forcing translators to adopt additional income-generating activities, which interfere with their professional activities and leave them less time to develop as professional translators, which in turn reduces their income from translation. A vicious circle, if there is any.
The third front.
Translation is becoming an organized industry with agencies cornering the bulk of the work because of superior logistics supports available to them and their greater depth of pocket. Freelance translators see their days as numbered unless they work for agencies, which means accepting a much reduced rate for the same amount of work.
Fourth front.
Instead of thinking creatively to tackle these problems, translators appear to be a divided lot, drifting helplessly and unresistingly along, often misguided by people from other professions who have their own axes to grind.
[Edited at 2006-11-21 15:11]
| | | | Patricia Lane
Francia
Local time: 11:50
Da Francese a Inglese
+ ...
Balasubramaniam wrote:
Report from the first front.
No one seems to have an understanding of what exactly is meant by translation. The general impression is that anyone with a smattering of two languages can translate the Bible.
That's a rather broad generalisation, isn't it? Someone must know what is meant by "translation"!
So we have a huge influx of people in our profession who know next to nothing about translation. No wonder editors have few hairs left on their heads; these "translators" generate so much work for them.
Good editors don't want that kind of work. Lousy translators that give editors headaches or bald spots don't get a lot of repeat business.
And this creates the next problem. All this correcting poor translations gives editors a big ego boost and they begin to think they can define and pontificate over the translation profession!
if you mean that poor translations lead editors to scream that translators should be able to write properly, then I should think they are actually doing the profession a favor. I'm with RobinB on that one (Robin -- you're not alone!!)
The second front.
With CAT tools gaining perfection every day, translation rates have tumbled down to abysmal levels, forcing translators to adopt additional income-generating activities, which interfere with their professional activities and leave them less time to develop as professional translators, which in turn reduces their income from translation. A vicious circle, if there is any.
CAT tools, IMHO, are not responsible for rates plunging. Maybe it is my "Yankee" side speaking here, but I see too many freelancers completely forgetting they are running a business and that they need to plan, strategize, market, communicate and so on, accordingly.
The third front.
Translation is becoming an organized industry with agencies cornering the bulk of the work because of superior logistics supports available to them and their greater depth of pocket. Freelance translators see their days as numbered unless they work for agencies, which means accepting a much reduced rate for the same amount of work.
Yes, this IS a core problem. And it will become all the more so if the QA norms under discussion in Germany for Europe-wide application get adopted as they are proposed now (this from a colleague of mine in Germany who went to a meeting about this yesterday). It seems to be tailor-made for large agencies. Best solution is for translators to network and work in teams more frequently and effectively.
Fourth front.
Instead of thinking creatively to tackle these problems, translators appear to be a divided lot, drifting helplessly and unresistingly along, often misguided by people from other professions who have their own axes to ground.
Back to the issue of professionalism - not in the act and art of translating per se - in recognizing each one of us is running a business, not living as romantic starving artists.
Cheers,
Patricia
[Edited at 2006-11-21 12:57]
| | | | | Generalisations | Nov 21, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
All this correcting poor translations gives editors a big ego boost and they begin to think they can define and pontificate over the translation profession!
See here for some views of the quality of translations provided these days:
http://www.proz.com/topic/59989
One wonders whether those who edit/review/proofread may have a point.
With CAT tools gaining perfection every day, translation rates have tumbled down to abysmal levels, forcing translators to adopt additional income-generating activities, which interfere with their professional activities and leave them less time to develop as professional translators, which in turn reduces their income from translation.
Another generalisation, which almost ranks right up there with your suggestion on the "are men or women better translators" thread that men only become translators because they can't handle the cut and thrust of a "real job" (I paraphrase, but that was the gist).
Globalisation is one reason for rates dropping in real terms (i.e. people living in countries where the cost of living is cheaper, who are able to provide cheaper services). Fair enough, and those of us living in more expensive countries where we need to charge more to earn a living wage need to add value in other ways.
Another is that the resources available to translators are more widely available. Twenty years ago, if I wanted to find out something specific about how the core in a nuclear reactor worked, I needed to take half a day to go to the library and research it. With the internet, I can (probably) get that information in an hour without leaving the house. Hence the overall cost for that translation only needs to factor in one hour of research, not half a day, therefore the rate per word is cheaper.
CAT tools help us, the translators, increase productivity. The point is, with all the tools available, can you a) do a decent job and b) earn enough to live on? CAT tools and the pricing structures imposed by some agencies for using them may mean that the overall price for a given document is not what it used to be, but equally it shouldn't take as much time to translate. The point is, can you, with these rates/prices, earn enough for your needs (or aspirations)?
Translation is becoming an organized industry with agencies cornering the bulk of the work because of superior logistics supports available to them and their greater depth of pocket. Freelance translators see their days as numbered unless they work for agencies, which means accepting a much reduced rate for the same amount of work.
Agencies exist and survive (ignoring the "bad" agency/"good" agency thing - let's assume they are all good for the purposes of this argument) because they provide a service that people are willing to pay for. If there was no need for them, they would die out. End clients don't want to deal directly with end translators when they have projects that need to be translated into several languages, or projects of tens of thousands of words to be ready in a fortnight. They've got their core businesses to look after. So they give their translation project to a specialist organisation who can take care of all that, while they concentrate on manufacturing widgets.
From the end translator side, we (hopefully) get a variety of work, reduced credit risk, freedom to take on a project or not, no need to seek out clients directly (unless we want to). Yes, agencies have their faults, but they are not the devil incarnate.
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