| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2] | Translation agencies getting cheekier every day... Initiator des Themas: Martin Wenzel
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| No need to touch machine translation, just redo it! | Jun 1, 2007 |
lexical wrote:
If it was a machine translation...
...or I suspected it was, I'd always refuse to touch it, simply on the principle that we don't want to encourage clients to think they can save money by machine translating a text and getting us to clean it up.
Machine translation is free, so two cases are possible:
1. the client is ignorant about the issue, and thinks that quick (and cheap) proofreading will turn it into the desired masterpiece;
2. the client is a smart-aleck who wants to get translation done for proofreading rates.
In either case, the client will have spent nothing so far. Therefore it's quite fair for me to offer a decent translation from the original at my standard rate. If the client is wise, s/he'll take it!
| | | | Erika Pavelka (X) 
Local time: 07:38
Französisch > Englisch
| Answer to Viktoria | Jun 1, 2007 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
On another note... Hmmm. I just wanted to say that not all people in the province of Quebec who think they are bilingual are wrong. Also, there are bad translations coming from all over the world, so I don't understand why Quebec in particular. Do we really need this debate here? Can you clear this up, Erika?
[Edited at 2007-06-01 03:47]
Viktoria, I used Quebec as an example because that's where the majority of my work comes from. I am also referring to the English of Francophones, please remember that. Many think that because they can speak English, they can write it as well. I speak French fluently and can write very well (my husband is a Quebecker and also a translator), but I would never dream of writing something important in French without having my husband check it first.
I've had so many atrocious texts written by native Francophones that I refuse most revision nowadays. In some texts, each English word could be replaced by a French word and the text would make sense. If you've never received texts like that, you're lucky.
I wasn't trying to spark a debate, I was simply using my experience as an example, and my experience is in Quebec. I've read about German-English translators complaining about the same thing, so we're not the only ones.
| | | | | Quebec and the rest of the world | Jun 1, 2007 |
Erika Pavelka wrote:
I wasn't trying to spark a debate
Phew... I'm glad! I have heard so many atrociously offending comments about the quality of French in Quebec (of course, those who raise the question are usually francophones from other countries) that I was guessing maybe you were adding to it. I also hear a lot of complaints about people in Quebec not being truly bilingual, and I agree that a fairly big portion of those claiming to be bilingual aren't really (the country having two official languages, our expectations here from bilinguals are lower than in other parts of the world) - but that doesn't mean there aren't any true bilinguals in Quebec. I am glad you did not mean to complain - it's just that when I first saw your post, it felt like "Here we go again!".
I also got several badly written/transated texts - however, weird as it may sound, the worst part of those systematically comes from Europe and I've never really had any trouble with made in Quebec translations, except for some translations that were done by people who were either not very competent or not very careful. This is not to say francophones in Europe don't speak French as well as people in Quebec do - it's just that I think maybe we are under so much more anglophone influence here that we are probably more sensitive to anglicisms - my pet peeve when editing other people's work. I mean, if we have "fin de semaine" in French, why say "weekend"?
Back to the original topic, it is always best to read the entire text before accepting/quoting, if you have enough time. This may seem like much, but I have learned the hard way that it is still much better wasting a few hours to make sure we are dealing with a correct text than being caught in an unreal project that is a headache to work on and also probably underpaid.
As for machine translation, for reasons outlined above, I also refuse them. In any case, if in the middle of a job you realize it is much worse than agreed before starting, nothing forbids you to get in touch with the client and put a stop to the job and ask for payment for the portion you have worked on, or to have them modify the conditions of the contract before continuing. Of course, I would not do this with a brand new client - but with established ones that I trust and know will care about my concerns, it is best to let the client know immediately that the actual job is not what was originally discussed.
[Edited at 2007-06-01 21:54]
| | | | Richard Benham
Frankreich
Local time: 13:38
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | Machine translation? | Jun 2, 2007 |
Flächenheizung in 2 Ausführungen
Panel heating in 2 executions
Mobile Fußbodenheizung mit Abdeckblech, befahrbar
Under-floor heating with cover plate, passably
gewerblich genutzte Gebäude
commercial used buildings
It looks bad enough to be a machine translation, but has more the air of a hopeless human’s effort. A machine would not have omitted Mobile, for instance. Most machine translators, if they encounter a word they don’t know, assume it’s a proper noun or the like and incorporate it into the translation. It is more likely to be the work of foreign-to-foreign translator in a low-wage country.
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lingomania
Local time: 21:38
Italienisch > Englisch
| Cheekier in many different ways | Jun 4, 2007 |
It's not only a question of them becoming cheekier in the strictly $$$sense, but they're becoming cheekier in the sense of: "yesterday" deadlines, ignoring review notes on translated material handed in, ignoring true human outsourcing and contacts, etc. I think this situation will not last long for the benefit of all parties.
Rob
| | | | | Machine translation - cheekiness part | Jun 7, 2007 |
Wellllll, there are few things I never do:
- accept rush jobs on Fridays for Mondays from companies I don't know. If they are looking for quality translators (as they usually insist on mentioning) they could have found and contacted me before. And best of all the rates are usually ridiculous, not only for rush jobs but in general.
- accept post-editing/proofing jobs from companies I don't know.
- accept post-editing/proofing jobs at per word price. Why? Very simple: You accept ... See more Wellllll, there are few things I never do:
- accept rush jobs on Fridays for Mondays from companies I don't know. If they are looking for quality translators (as they usually insist on mentioning) they could have found and contacted me before. And best of all the rates are usually ridiculous, not only for rush jobs but in general.
- accept post-editing/proofing jobs from companies I don't know.
- accept post-editing/proofing jobs at per word price. Why? Very simple: You accept a per word rate, realize that the translation is crap, then maybe realize that the original is crap. You start correcting and end up with a miserable pay for considerable improvement. Your benefit: Fits of rage, loss of time, effort and money, because actually you could be productive during that time. Their benefit: Cheap translation + cheap proofreading = better gains margin. I strictly do proofing or post-editing against a per hour rate, i.e. the better the translation, the less time I need and vice versa. If they don't accept, I don't do the job. Why should I suffer through a possibly unprofessional or machine translation without getting adequate payment? Unfortunately there are lots who just play along with this stupid game, but I feel it is a loss of time and qualification without appropriate remuneration. ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Litauen
Local time: 14:38
Englisch > Litauisch
+ ...
I have a colleague who worked for a similar agency - the agency pushed down the rates as much as possible, then some vague "claims" (of course, only after the receipt of the job"), never ever paid on time as it was agreed. Last time he lost his temper about the agency and did a simple thing - took a rather big job from them, completed it even long before the deadline and then just waited. When the deadline came, the agency asked "Where is our job? Please send it quickly as the client needs it al... See more I have a colleague who worked for a similar agency - the agency pushed down the rates as much as possible, then some vague "claims" (of course, only after the receipt of the job"), never ever paid on time as it was agreed. Last time he lost his temper about the agency and did a simple thing - took a rather big job from them, completed it even long before the deadline and then just waited. When the deadline came, the agency asked "Where is our job? Please send it quickly as the client needs it already!" and he replied "Where is my money that is overdue for 2 months?". An interesting outcome - the accountant from the agency "returned from the holidays" in 10 minutes and the payment was received in 2 hours. The agency started respecting that translator - started paying normal rates (well, it seems they really could afford that) and always on time
[Edited at 2007-06-09 21:58] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Martin Wenzel
Deutschland
Local time: 13:38
Englisch > Deutsch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | This is one way of pressuring them for a change | Jun 10, 2007 |
Well, yes that is one way of doing it, and a clever one at that. I have kept one translation back, because the three previous ones had not been paid yet. But, I had to rely on their promises (which they kept!!!) that they would pay after the weekend, so I sent my translation in the end...
Somehow, their poor accountant is to blame for anything that goes wrong with payments.
However, I am sure the accountant does only as he/she has been instructed to do...
A... See more Well, yes that is one way of doing it, and a clever one at that. I have kept one translation back, because the three previous ones had not been paid yet. But, I had to rely on their promises (which they kept!!!) that they would pay after the weekend, so I sent my translation in the end...
Somehow, their poor accountant is to blame for anything that goes wrong with payments.
However, I am sure the accountant does only as he/she has been instructed to do...
Accountants seem to need a lot of holidays these days...
Hence, this excuse is so flimsy and very hard to believe... ▲ Collapse
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Martin Wenzel
Deutschland
Local time: 13:38
Englisch > Deutsch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Should I lough or cry? | Jun 10, 2007 |
Be careful whom you give your mobile phone number, too...
A friend of mine gave her mobile phone number to an agency that make these impossible promises...we translate from/into every language, every subject, meet every deadline...
She said she felt haunted by this agency that had obviously promised an impossible delivery date for the translation. She couldn't even go to the supermarket w/o the agency checking on her hourly progress...
I had a simila... See more Be careful whom you give your mobile phone number, too...
A friend of mine gave her mobile phone number to an agency that make these impossible promises...we translate from/into every language, every subject, meet every deadline...
She said she felt haunted by this agency that had obviously promised an impossible delivery date for the translation. She couldn't even go to the supermarket w/o the agency checking on her hourly progress...
I had a similar experience once when a client gave me a translation w/o admitting how urgent it really was...
I had promised to return the translation on Friday, but they really needed it already by Wednesday. So, they phoned me almost hourly to see how I was progressing...
This made me so nervous that I made one or two nervous mouse-clicks, which resulted in the file getting corrupted. I lost more than a day's work. I was lucky enough to have had a hard-copy print-out, so I ONLY needed to RETYPE and not retranslate...this would not have happened with a CAT tool, of course...
This is why all this skyping and mobile phones can add so much pressure....
Don't get me wrong I am in favour of new technology once it has stood the test of time.
Perhaps I am too romantic, too, but I believe we should use answering machines again. They used to be such a blessing, as we could decide ourselves whether something was urgent or not. It seems that agencies have become the utter control freaks, or is it their clients? ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Litauen
Local time: 14:38
Englisch > Litauisch
+ ...
| now it is your turn | Jun 12, 2007 |
Martin,
They have pressed you for long about the rates, wanted to find "something wrong" in your translations as to cut down the payment even more, and I think it is your turn now:
1) their organizational matters, like "an accountant" is their problem - it is not an excuse, same like you could not tell them "I am late with translation because you know, the best friend of my dog got sick". Whatever they do, how they do - they have to keep their obligations of the transac... See more Martin,
They have pressed you for long about the rates, wanted to find "something wrong" in your translations as to cut down the payment even more, and I think it is your turn now:
1) their organizational matters, like "an accountant" is their problem - it is not an excuse, same like you could not tell them "I am late with translation because you know, the best friend of my dog got sick". Whatever they do, how they do - they have to keep their obligations of the transaction just like you did - your obligation was to do the job in good quality and on time, their obligation is to pay for it as agreed;
2) make your move now back to them - give them more time to settle the payment, but make it strict. A simple email could help explaining the reason - due to delays of your payment you'd like to get, say a 10 % bigger rate, but for this you give more time for payment settlement, but you kindly request it to be without any reminders. Say, if they pay 10 USD/30 days (in reality paid with many reminders on the 41st day), make them 11 USD/45 days, but paid without reminders on the 45th day at the latest; I think they will "eat it up";
3) during the time being, while you work for them, try to find a better client who pays better, and/or who pays on time at least; I think it is not just a matter of money, but a matter of principle of have a mutual agreement between two equal parties followed. E.g. I have two clients - client A pays by 30 % less than client B. BUT client B never pays on time - they pay with big delays but they do pay at the end always. As for client A, if you agree with them to have the money on July 1st, you can check your account on July 1st, and it is 1000 % you will see their money there (I even forget about the dates they have to pay). And if there are two proposals at the same time from client A and client B and I could chose only one, I'd chose client A. Not because of money as such, but for the organizational issues and reliability. Reminders, calling, and etc. - it is also a waste of time (and money). + People (like us too) also plan their income and expenses.
When you have mor clients like that, you can raise the rates to that agency without any headache and little by little maybe even the rates to A type of clients. I have "cleaned up" my client list on this principle. The final result would that you have good clients who pay well and who pay on time. It takes time, but it really works.
As for urgency, I have a principle that "if the job is burning, better not to take it at all" - it is a very high risk to have problems (just because of the human factor). Well, people can build a house in 1 day, but a house is usually built, say, in 6 months - each job has its own "time" to be done if people need quality and the job done as it should be done. And again - if you think you really want this urgent job, you can say + ...% for urgency. The interesting thing is that many agencies are getting crazy about their clients and want to be kind to them on the expense of the health of their translators working overnights. But if you speak to 10 of reasonable clients and explain that a translator can do 5000 words till tomorrow, but this is a very intensive work where normally 2000 words can be done per day and you would like to charge 50 % more for urgency, 9 of those 10 people will tell you "well, 50 % is a big difference, so how much time do you need then? 2 days, 3 days?" Very urgent jobs are just a rare exception, and if it is really something very burning to them, they will really agree to pay extra (as much as you ask). So, play on that and "disarm" such aggressive clients with a polite, kind and calm face expression (or a corresponding tone in your phone or email).
P.S. A mistake in the principle about "the client always right". There is one word missing in it - "a GOOD client is always right" and "a good client" is the client who pays well, values your work and effort, and who pays on time and follows all other agreements. It is NOT "the client is always right" having in mind such "underoverduepaying" agencies
[Edited at 2007-06-12 02:43]
[Edited at 2007-06-12 02:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I had a problem you can consider related | Jun 12, 2007 |
I was contacted by an agency that had asked for "medical" translation.
The job resulted to be the translation of a sofware for a machine with a medical use.
First of all the sent the trados files, no original "clean" in English, not a word about what they expected.
This was supposed to be a very short work and they were prepared to pay 80 euros. Of course, they wanted it ready the next day.
Then there were all sorts of problems.
They wanted something they did not ... See more I was contacted by an agency that had asked for "medical" translation.
The job resulted to be the translation of a sofware for a machine with a medical use.
First of all the sent the trados files, no original "clean" in English, not a word about what they expected.
This was supposed to be a very short work and they were prepared to pay 80 euros. Of course, they wanted it ready the next day.
Then there were all sorts of problems.
They wanted something they did not tell me and kept sending back the files. Last time they told me that I have made a mistake with the software. Maybe I made a mistake copying words in Trados, they said the words did not appear when they cleaned the file.
Anyway, they did not need a translator of medical texts. They wanted someone who knew about software and could imagine how the instructions would appear on a screen.
Last time, I just said: don't pay me, give this job to someone else, I should not have accepted it in the first place.
But, as this one was my first experience with a client I found in the proz I feel really bad.
They want us to translate, compose, know everything, work fast... and all for 80 euros.
Only wanted to share this bad experience. ▲ Collapse
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