| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Poll: What is your average daily capacity for translation? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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| Variation? Definitely. No point? Why not? | Apr 28, 2022 |
Jianrong Sun wrote:
I don't think there is any point in discussing this topic. In addition to personal factors, the average daily capacity for translation is closely related to the professional type of the original text and the quality requirements of the target document.
I agree that there is a high degree of variation between translators' different situations, markets, clients, texts, etc. but I do not see how that means there's no point in discussing the question of output. In fact, I think it's all the more reason to do so, so that proz translators can get an idea of the different dynamics out there.
| | | | | Proofreading: this time-consuming flow step should not be omitted in the time calculation | Apr 28, 2022 |
Justin Peterson wrote: Lieven Malaise wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
6,000 - 8,000, depending on the difficulty of the texts, and how many hours I can work that day. I suppose you're using machine translation then ? 8000 words a day for normal translation (with a certain degree of quality) seems physically impossible to me. Of course. Is anyone NOT using MT in the year 2022? I use MT for suggested translations, and use either all of it, if it's good, or none of it, if it's trash. This, after reading the document, and then doing a thorough proofread at the end, of course.
Typical case: the word 'table' can stand for a 100k bucks worth furniture or a part of an expensive machine/process line and a sheet of paper, both within the same area of specialization (in the same dictionary and TM). When translating e.g. parts lists, no existing MT is able to contextualize the exact meaning, a certain brain effort is needed.
Based on my own experience (thousands of machine-translated pages), I can swear that under incredibly high grammatical perfection of MT (if any) bad omissions (lacking translations, sometimes connotative ones, even entire portions of text) very frequently hide. These holes are to be found and filled, and taken into time-calculation, apart of general stylistic (easy-reading) adjustments.
So, use of MT generally doesn't (shouldn't) bring you quicker to deadline, but you will bring 'fresher pizza' to your consumer (be it paying client or swearing PM). It depends on taste.
[Edited at 2022-04-28 07:41 GMT]
| | | | | Everyone is in a different boat ... | Apr 28, 2022 |
Jean Dimitriadis wrote: Justin Peterson wrote: Jean Dimitriadis wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
6,000 - 8,000, depending on the difficulty of the texts, and how many hours I can work that day.
[Edited at 2022-04-27 09:04 GMT] I wonder what's your rent like... How many words do you need to translate to pay the rent? How many days does it take? [Edited at 2022-04-27 14:12 GMT] *** Actually, it's a mortage, but let's not get personal now ; ) If your tongue is in your cheek, and you're skeptical ... whatever. I've actually been baffled for years about how people can make a living at 2,000 words/day, so I thought I'd answer honestly. To be honest, I was bracing for more vitriolic accusations of lying and a supposed lack of professionalism, as this question often makes tempers flare and elicits claims of exaggeration, for whatever reason. I am not boasting. I'm just answering the question. Hi Justin, Thank you for your honest replies. They paint an interesting picture and make for a thoughtful discussion. What did strike me as an exaggeration was your claim that an average of 3,000 words per day would barely pay the rent, not so much the high daily output. For perspective (and to respond in the same truthful fashion), I *average* around 2,000 words a day, in around 5 work hours. Can be more, can be less, but I've found that working more *on average* is not conducive to my well-being. With that output, the rent is paid in a day and a half or two, and the average saving rate is 50% or above. There is nothing to boast about here. When I started working as a translator, I decided to take on relatively challenging texts. My thinking was that this would allow me to further hone my skills (which is also congruent with literature on mastery and "deliberate practice"), command higher rates and become a better translator in the long run. I think my approach generally still holds true, but I also hear the case of MT helping focus on the tough stuff even in simpler texts. Either way, this keeps the work challenging. At any rate, I don't come across many simple texts as a translator. Maybe this is also down to my target language. French is quite demanding as it requires precise expression and generally rewards more careful work. [Edited at 2022-04-28 06:33 GMT]
Thank you for your reply.
Again, everyone's in a different boat.
As for paying the rent/mortgage, just look at prices for homes in downtown Madrid, for a family (I am married and have two kids). They start at around 1 million euros. So, without gettting into any details, that gives you an idea.
I don't work part-time, or on the side. I work ful-time, and long hours. Again, that's not bragging, or to slight those who do. In fact, I am envious. I'd like to work less, but that's just not in the cards at this time.
I do realize that many translators, as someone pointed out here, are doing this on the side, which I guess should be taken into account when looking at the numbers from yesterday's poll, which I find shockingly low. Then again, many of those translators might be charging double what I do, as they may be doing very difficult material, and in countries with higher rates.
Yes, when I started out I assumed the best strategy would be to produce very high-quality translations of very challenging material. In my experience, just the opposite was the case, but I guess it could have gone the other way. Again, in my experience clients are not willing to pay the rates that very difficult material demands. If you're offered a cent or two more for a job that takes twice as long, you don't have to be a mathematician to see that it's not worth it.
When I started out I translated without a CAT, writing under the original text. (!) I didn't even know what a CAT was. It was still an animal the goes "meow", and I did about 3,000/day with what I now view as a positively medieval method.
When I look back, I can't believe it. Shifting to CATs and MT, obviously, was abn utter and complete gamechanger, doubling and even tripling my output while improving my quality and consistency.
I see a lot of people on here still eschew MT in CATs. I'm not here to criticize or judge anyone, but I am puzzled, again, that working without them at this point, one can make the numbers add up.
What I take away from these chats is that there really is dramatic variation in how translators are approaching the profession. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say - though I've never understood why, what a grisly image :/
In any case, to each his own. Good luck to all, and happy translating
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 22:20
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| It depends on who you work for. | Apr 28, 2022 |
I can imagine 2000 words a day is enough when you work for direct clients, since you can double the prices compared to working for indirect clients (translation agencies). Working for translation agencies at 2000 words a day (5 days a week) would mean in my case earning slightly less than the statutory minimum wage in Belgium. So I work long hours, if necessary, to at least double that amount and make a decent living. That being said: it takes time to achieve that daily amount. I started 17 year... See more I can imagine 2000 words a day is enough when you work for direct clients, since you can double the prices compared to working for indirect clients (translation agencies). Working for translation agencies at 2000 words a day (5 days a week) would mean in my case earning slightly less than the statutory minimum wage in Belgium. So I work long hours, if necessary, to at least double that amount and make a decent living. That being said: it takes time to achieve that daily amount. I started 17 years ago as a freelance translator (before that I worked for 5 years as an in-house translator) with a rather modest income and I have doubled it since then. Experience is such an important factor in our profession.
In case you wonder why I don't switch to direct clients: I put high value in the fact of 'being left alone', not having to cope with the fuzz of long phone calls preparing for and explaining projects, and irrational behaviour like 'We're not happy about your work, we're not going to tell you why, but we're not going to pay you anyway'. I have long-standing customers who are very trustworthy, who give me very interesting projects (I forgot to mention that I adore my profession) and who will never harass me with unsubstantiated quality complaints. So let met put it this way: money isn't everything. ▲ Collapse
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Lieven Malaise wrote:
Working for translation agencies at 2000 words a day (5 days a week) would mean in my case earning slightly less than the statutory minimum wage in Belgium. So I work long hours, if necessary, to at least double that amount and make a decent living.
Google says minimum wage in Belgium is 20,000 euros a year
2,000 words a day is 10,000 a week for 45 weeks is 450,000 words = 4 cents a word
After 22 years as a translator?
| | | | | Yes, there's a big difference between working for direct clients or agencies ... | Apr 28, 2022 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
I can imagine 2000 words a day is enough when you work for direct clients, since you can double the prices compared to working for indirect clients (translation agencies). Working for translation agencies at 2000 words a day (5 days a week) would mean in my case earning slightly less than the statutory minimum wage in Belgium. So I work long hours, if necessary, to at least double that amount and make a decent living. That being said: it takes time to achieve that daily amount. I started 17 years ago as a freelance translator (before that I worked for 5 years as an in-house translator) with a rather modest income and I have doubled it since then. Experience is such an important factor in our profession.
In case you wonder why I don't switch to direct clients: I put high value in the fact of 'being left alone', not having to cope with the fuzz of long phone calls preparing for and explaining projects, and irrational behaviour like 'We're not happy about your work, we're not going to tell you why, but we're not going to pay you anyway'. I have long-standing customers who are very trustworthy, who give me very interesting projects (I forgot to mention that I adore my profession) and who will never harass me with unsubstantiated quality complaints. So let met put it this way: money isn't everything.
+++
One big advantage with agencies simple: volume. If they are happy with your work and rate, they can give you a steady stream of work that a given client cannot. And down time is the translator's bane. Going with agencies is often a good idea.
Yes, experience is everything. One reason my output is so high is that, after 17 years (also), I can read the Spanish, translate it subconciously while reading it, take mental (and physical) notes of the pitfalls in the text, and then carefully proofread the MT translation at a speed that doubles or triples what I used to do. I almost always know what the MT is going to get right, and where it is going to struggle, and to adjust my focus accordingly. But that's a skill that took YEARS to develop. * In my experience, I spend 90% of my time on the 10% of the text that is hardest. At this point, technology is able to translate the other 90% correctly. Rather than slogging through those parts, I can spend my time and energy fine-tuning and enhancing them, and then sinking my teeth into the hard parts, where the human translator is, still, indispensable. The efficacy of this technology might scare some people, but there's no stopping this trend. I think we have to become experts at exploiting the technology, rather than shunning it ... *
* Again if you're doing poetry, or fiction, or creative advertising slogans, etc. this doesn't apply, I know...
[Edited at 2022-04-28 10:09 GMT]
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Kay Denney wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
Is anyone NOT using MT in the year 2022?
Are people, for example, really manually translating lists of countries, for example? (!) Or retranslating exact sentences they have done many times before? ETC. Why? I don't use MT. I translate mainly for the arts, blurb about upcoming exhibitions, sleeve notes for CDs (yes they still exist), press releases about upcoming events, biographies of artists. Basically, not the stuff that MT will be helpful for. If you have to read what MT comes up with, decide whether or not it's worthwhile to use it and then translate it when you decide that no, it's not usable, it'll take far longer than just translating it from scratch. My clients tend to want prose that's hard-hitting, with original turns of phrase, text that incites their clients to click on "buy now" rather than some tired old réchauffé. If there happens to be a list of countries in a press release, yes I translate them manually. It takes five seconds. I'm not sure how long it would take to have them translated by MT, but I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting time needlessly. I see that most people voted for 2,000 words a day, I voted 3,000. I remember working out a while back that, discounting downtime, I translated an average of 3,800 words a day while my colleague earning the same salary averaged half that. In all honesty I don't think I do as much nowadays, but my hourly rate as a freelancer is much more than when I was working in-house, so it's all good. Justin if you need to translate 8,000 words a day to pay your rent, you must either be working at an abysmal rate or living in a mansion...
No mansion. A house in the center of Madrid. Two kids, school, car, etc. I am not rich. But, if you want to live an upper-middle class lifestyle in Madrid, you cannot be making 2000 E/month :/ * My rate is slightly below average in Spain.
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Justin Peterson wrote:
* Again if you're doing poetry, or fiction, or creative advertising slogans, etc. this doesn't apply, I know...
It doesn't apply if you are producing high-quality translations of any kind.
As I said a while back in another thread, MT only replaces inputting your first draft.
That takes only 1/6 of my time. The next 2/3 is improving, and the last 1/6 is checking, both of which are still required with MT.
Inputting the text myself gives me a much better first draft than MT and so shortens the improving/checking steps to the extent that there is no benefit from using MT.
So MT post-editing only saves time and money for texts where style is not important. I don't get why a linguist would want to operate in that market.
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Justin Peterson wrote:
if you want to live an upper-middle class lifestyle in Madrid, you cannot be making 2000 E/month :/ * My rate is slightly below average in Spain.
So why not charge more, work less, and enjoy life more?
| | | | Sadek_A 
Local time: 00:20
English to Arabic
+ ...
| What kind of a question is that? | Apr 28, 2022 |
Ice Scream wrote:
I don't get why a linguist would want to operate in that market.
Of course,...so...that...others...are...enabled...to...take advantage of him/her.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 22:20
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Wrong calculation. | Apr 28, 2022 |
Ice Scream wrote:
Google says minimum wage in Belgium is 20,000 euros a year
2,000 words a day is 10,000 a week for 45 weeks is 450,000 words = 4 cents a word
After 22 years as a translator?
Your calculation is wrong because you forgot the taxes. The minimum wage is after taxes, the word count is before taxes. 8 cents would be the right solution to your equation, since in Belgium you pay at least 50% taxes and social contributions.
| | | | | More math(s) | Apr 28, 2022 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Your calculation is wrong because you forgot the taxes. The minimum wage is after taxes, the word count is before taxes. 8 cents would be the right solution to your equation, since in Belgium you pay at least 50% taxes and social contributions.
Not according to my Google. Gross minimum wage would then be a very generous 40,000 euros. Surprised more people don’t move to Belgium and work in McDonald’s…
Either way, a still reasonable 3,000 words a day at 4 cents makes you comfortably off, and even 8 cents seems very low to me for European languages.
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:20
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Ice Scream wrote:
So why not charge more, work less, and enjoy life more?
I think, fair play to him, he already acknowledged that he personally hasn't been able to find clients who will accept those higher rates. An alternative strategy - which he appears to have seized with both hands - is to compensate through higher volume by dealing with lower-quality clients who are not concerned about MT. If it works, it works.
Still, I'm not sure I buy Justin's "it's just the way my language pair is" argument, because I've heard that used for all kinds of pairs, including my own. The fact is that in any given pair, different translators achieve varying levels of success.
While I accept that economic conditions in Spain haven't been great over the last decade, it seems to me that with a language pair as widely used as Spanish those high-paying clients must exist somewhere. Even if they make up only (say) 5% of potential clients, that should equate to hundreds of organizations, right? Could lack of specialisation be an issue, in the sense of impeding the ability to differentiate?
The other issue is that - as your comment makes clear - different freelancers have completely different definitions of success. You look at him slaving away for long hours every day in Madrid and think "Nah". And yet although you're content in Mid-Wales, presumably wild horses couldn't drag Justin to live there. As for me, my sister has a lovely flat just off Calle de Atocha, and I have enjoyed my visits, and I have admired the scenery in your part of the world as I pass through, but personally I wouldn't want to live in either Madrid or Brechfa. Or even Tokyo, for that matter.
Each of us has a different vision of where we want to be, and the compromises we are prepared to accept to get there. Which is I guess why I objected to his original "Is anyone NOT using MT in the year 2022?" rhetorical flourish. Other approaches are indeed possible, as he now accepts.
Dan
| | | | | Alas, we cannot all be lofty artistes | Apr 28, 2022 |
Ice Scream wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
* Again if you're doing poetry, or fiction, or creative advertising slogans, etc. this doesn't apply, I know... It doesn't apply if you are producing high-quality translations of any kind. As I said a while back in another thread, MT only replaces inputting your first draft. That takes only 1/6 of my time. The next 2/3 is improving, and the last 1/6 is checking, both of which are still required with MT. Inputting the text myself gives me a much better first draft than MT and so shortens the improving/checking steps to the extent that there is no benefit from using MT. So MT post-editing only saves time and money for texts where style is not important. I don't get why a linguist would want to operate in that market.
You can't imagine why anyone would want to operate in a market in which style is not important?
Alas, we cannot all be artistes.
Some of us are just lowly worker bees, churning out honey.
| | | | | I guess it depends on your texts ... | Apr 28, 2022 |
Justin Peterson wrote: Ice Scream wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
* Again if you're doing poetry, or fiction, or creative advertising slogans, etc. this doesn't apply, I know... It doesn't apply if you are producing high-quality translations of any kind. As I said a while back in another thread, MT only replaces inputting your first draft. That takes only 1/6 of my time. The next 2/3 is improving, and the last 1/6 is checking, both of which are still required with MT. Inputting the text myself gives me a much better first draft than MT and so shortens the improving/checking steps to the extent that there is no benefit from using MT. So MT post-editing only saves time and money for texts where style is not important. I don't get why a linguist would want to operate in that market. You can't imagine why anyone would want to operate in a market in which style is not important? Alas, we cannot all be artistes. Some of us are just lowly worker bees, churning out honey.
+++
The original translation only takes 1/6 of your time? WOW. I am not questioning that, or criticizing that. I'm just surprised.
When dealing with pretty straightforward material, my original translation takes 80-90% of my time.
To each his own, I guess.
It's funny. You can't imagine how anyone could want to produce translations that do not require time-consuming, painstaking revision, and I can't imagine how any could want to do translations that do, or how that can be lucrative.
Again, I guess different people are approaching the process, and the market, from totally different directions.
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