| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3] > | Change of scope from edit to unethical Auteur du fil: Kristi Hyllekve
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Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 02:49
français vers anglais
| It happened to me too | Jan 28, 2012 |
although I was actually working at the agency at the time.
The translation in question was a set of accounts from witnesses describint the duties of an employee suing his employer over his working conditions and pay. The accounts were written in English (but by people of various nationalities, judging from some of the names and the type of mistakes they made) and translated into French, the client was the employer's lawyer.
Shortly after delivery, the lawyer rang to s... See more although I was actually working at the agency at the time.
The translation in question was a set of accounts from witnesses describint the duties of an employee suing his employer over his working conditions and pay. The accounts were written in English (but by people of various nationalities, judging from some of the names and the type of mistakes they made) and translated into French, the client was the employer's lawyer.
Shortly after delivery, the lawyer rang to say that the accounts were too low-key, not emphatic enough, it sounded like the translator was biased in favour of the employee.
Two in-house members of staff were assigned to check the documents again, a native English speaker for an opinion of the source text (that was me) and another native French speaker.
Reading the accounts, it was pretty clear that the employee was being paid a fraction of the minimum wage in France for a job that involved being on duty round the clock. In fact it did seem that some of the people providing accounts were more on the employee's side, and certainly there was very little in any of them to incriminate him, apart from a certain degree of negligence with respect to one of his duties. One of the witnesses recounted a couple of episodes in which the employer's wife was clearly asking the employee to do things that could not have been in the employment contract.
There was one term (in a good dozen pages of text) which had not been translated properly, and the error was indeed in the employee's favour. So I contacted the translator to explain about the complaint and discussed this term. We came up with a more appropriate term and apologised for this mistake. However the rest of the text had been translated faithfully, according to the spirit of the source text, and so we upheld our translation.
The lawyer was not happy though, saying that since the accounts were written in English, they were obviously more "stiff upper lip" than if they had been written by French people with their Latin propensities. A Brit might say that an employee was "somewhat slow" where a French speaker would call the same person something like an "utter sloth".
We discussed this in-house and reached the conclusion that, while we might tone language down in a press release when translating from French to English, to avoid sounding over the top, it was not appropriate in this case to scale it up. As I said, we had the impression that some of the witnesses were foreigners, one lived in Argentina, and had a typically Spanish name, for example. It's not because you write in English that you adopt an English outlook or style of expression, especially when your English is as shaky as in some of the accounts. It was up to the lawyer to either bully the witnesses into scaling their accounts up to the degree of frenzy he required, or to convince judge and jury that these Brits had a tendency to understatement.
We never worked for that lawyer again, but we didn't regret it in the least. AFAIK he did pay. ▲ Collapse
| | | | F Scott Ophof (X)
Belize
Local time: 18:49
néerlandais vers anglais
+ ...
| Disquieting and disappointing | Jan 28, 2012 |
The silence is deafening.
What I find upsetting is that I have seen no suggestions here on actions one could take to either help resolve Kristi's side of the problem (other than confirmation that she should be paid), or on how to head off possible consequences for others (such as bidders on that "rewrite"). Not even something like "go there-or-there for relevant steps/actions".
This is not a matter of ethics, but one of making the existence and use of these fora worthwhile, so at le... See more The silence is deafening.
What I find upsetting is that I have seen no suggestions here on actions one could take to either help resolve Kristi's side of the problem (other than confirmation that she should be paid), or on how to head off possible consequences for others (such as bidders on that "rewrite"). Not even something like "go there-or-there for relevant steps/actions".
This is not a matter of ethics, but one of making the existence and use of these fora worthwhile, so at least readers after us can see what can/should(not) be done, and need not invent the wheel yet again.
If this sounds blunt, so be it.
PS to Tomás:
I appreciate your reminder that the gifts of language and ethics are--as always--a mixed curse (confused/mixed metaphors?). Muchas gracias, senor!  ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristi Hyllekve
États-Unis
Local time: 20:49
Membre (2007)
anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | At least not standing completely alone | Jan 28, 2012 |
I appreciate all the feedback and the time/effort you all have put into writing to me, assuring me that I should be paid for job completed as instructed. I was just going to walk away from the fee -- perhaps that is what the agency does to others also. It is not the first time I have not been paid because of unscrupulous behaviour by an agency.
I am not the first -- nor will I be the last -- to encounter this type of behaviour by an agency or client. Perhaps the client doesn't know... See more I appreciate all the feedback and the time/effort you all have put into writing to me, assuring me that I should be paid for job completed as instructed. I was just going to walk away from the fee -- perhaps that is what the agency does to others also. It is not the first time I have not been paid because of unscrupulous behaviour by an agency.
I am not the first -- nor will I be the last -- to encounter this type of behaviour by an agency or client. Perhaps the client doesn't know any better, but the agency should. What I found disturbing is that after I refused to rewrite and embellish, I become the accused: the PM was quite unpleasant and said I was wasting her time.
And, I agree with Scott: what do we do "as a group" to stand firm against -- and report, if necessary -- agencies/clients who want to push the envelope beyond acceptable ethical standards? And when do the monitors of ProZ step in and recommend action?
Thank you! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Submit a support request | Jan 28, 2012 |
Kristi Hyllekve wrote:
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And, I agree with Scott: what do we do "as a group" to stand firm against -- and report, if necessary -- agencies/clients who want to push the envelope beyond acceptable ethical standards? And when do the monitors of ProZ step in and recommend action?
Thank you!
Unless you are infringing the rules yourself, the staff and moderators will probably not intervene. They will not have enough details, for instance from this forum thread, to take action, and giving enough details would violate the rules, as you would have to mention the name of the agency among other things!
The correct way to do its is to send a support request to staff with the details you cannot mention here, referring to this discussion if you like.
The answer may be that ProZ.com is a venue, and they canot take action, but if there are repeated reports about the same agency, or the full story does give grounds for action, then they will take it from there.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Germaine
Canada
Local time: 20:49
anglais vers français
+ ...
| About principles | Jan 28, 2012 |
I think that you should discuss the ethics issue with the Agency Manager, would it be only to check if this is common policy or the fact of a stressed out P.M.
Is the Agency a member of a professional order or association having a Code of ethics? Writing a formal complaint stating the facts (with a c.c. to the Agency) might be a way of raising awareness about the practice you describe.
I would make the payment issue one of principle as well. Send your invoice. If you... See more I think that you should discuss the ethics issue with the Agency Manager, would it be only to check if this is common policy or the fact of a stressed out P.M.
Is the Agency a member of a professional order or association having a Code of ethics? Writing a formal complaint stating the facts (with a c.c. to the Agency) might be a way of raising awareness about the practice you describe.
I would make the payment issue one of principle as well. Send your invoice. If you're not paid after the delay agreed upon, send a formal notice : payment shall be received within 10 days, otherwise you'll go to court, not to a collection agency, which will also make the issue public. (I wonder how a judge would react, learning that you were not paid for refusing to engage into a fraud...) Besides, I don't know about your province of residence, but in Quebec, all judgements are available at the tip of your fingers : http://www.jugements.qc.ca/. It's another way of getting information about an outsourcer. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | This might just be an ill-defined, inappropriately assigned task, but not necessarily unethical | Jan 28, 2012 |
When somebody is applying for a visa based on his or her personal qualifications, normally, he or she sendsto the immigration lawyer information about his or her background. In the case of artists, this might be newspaper clippings or simillar material. From the clippings, the attorney writes a document saying how brilliant an artist this person is. The attorney cannot lie, but can put adjectives qualifying the artist’s background. This is not unethical, just presenting his client under the be... See more When somebody is applying for a visa based on his or her personal qualifications, normally, he or she sendsto the immigration lawyer information about his or her background. In the case of artists, this might be newspaper clippings or simillar material. From the clippings, the attorney writes a document saying how brilliant an artist this person is. The attorney cannot lie, but can put adjectives qualifying the artist’s background. This is not unethical, just presenting his client under the best possible light.
A translator cannot change what he or she sees in the original documents (the paper clippings), but the lawyer can draft a better “promotional document”. If the clippings say that the person got three awards, the attorney might write that “that person exceptional career was recognized in three ocassions through three world-recognized prizes: A, B and C”. This is absolutely legit, as long as the document states the facts described on the clippings. The “exceptional nature” is in the eyes of the beholder.
This case might just be a guy or gal who wants to save attorney’s fees, translated the clippings and send the translations to a translation agency, instead of a lawyer, hoping that the translator can do the lawyer´s work at a lower fee.
I can´t say what is the situation in this case.I do not know enough facts. I can only advise that, whenever you write something on the Blue Board, just state the facts. Do not qualify them. Do not say that “this” is unethical.
Greetings to all,
Luis ▲ Collapse
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Pologne
Local time: 02:49
anglais vers polonais
+ ...
Adding non-existant paragraphs to your text and presenting them as a "translation" in order to intentionally mislead a visa authority might be a punishable crime. It is likely that a crime was already committed when you were asked to do so. Just don't threaten the agency in order to extract payment, as that might be "obstruction of justice" (a U.S. term) or something else.
| | | | | Not necessarily criminal, not even unethical | Jan 28, 2012 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Adding non-existant paragraphs to your text and presenting them as a "translation" in order to intentionally mislead a visa authority might be a punishable crime. It is likely that a crime was already committed when you were asked to do so. Just don't threaten the agency in order to extract payment, as that might be "obstruction of justice" (a U.S. term) or something else.
If the end-client intends to present the document as a "translation", indeed it is not only unethical. However, Krzysztof, in visa applications you generally do not present translations of clippings to support the application. I know that, I am an attorney who has some very limited experience as an immigration attorney in the U.S. I strongly believe that the end-client was trying to avoid going to an immigration attorney to save money.
Best,
Luis
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Kristi Hyllekve
États-Unis
Local time: 20:49
Membre (2007)
anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | Altering translated text IS wrong | Jan 28, 2012 |
I would agree with you had they asked me to summarize the dozen or so newspaper articles. However, I was asked to change the translated text to more enthusiastic terms and to pad the articles -- writing more than was in the translation. Since the client said it was for a Visa application and that each of the articles should be labelled with the newspaper and date of publication, to alter them to enhance the musician's talent is wrong. The PM agreed it was an unorthodox request. She also said it ... See more I would agree with you had they asked me to summarize the dozen or so newspaper articles. However, I was asked to change the translated text to more enthusiastic terms and to pad the articles -- writing more than was in the translation. Since the client said it was for a Visa application and that each of the articles should be labelled with the newspaper and date of publication, to alter them to enhance the musician's talent is wrong. The PM agreed it was an unorthodox request. She also said it was a different request from the original. That is why I started this discussion because I need to hear from others on their stance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristi Hyllekve
États-Unis
Local time: 20:49
Membre (2007)
anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | padding not summarizing-->wrong | Jan 28, 2012 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Adding non-existant paragraphs to your text and presenting them as a "translation" in order to intentionally mislead a visa authority might be a punishable crime. It is likely that a crime was already committed when you were asked to do so. Just don't threaten the agency in order to extract payment, as that might be "obstruction of justice" (a U.S. term) or something else.
It is for a UK visa. I won't threaten to extract payment, but I intend to write to the HR director to ask about the company's ethics policy. I asked the PM for source and I asked if the translator was certified (since it is for a legal papers) but received no answer on either.
I had never worked with them before -- and, of course, will never work with them again.
If the HR person backs the PM, I will post the name of the company on the BB -- and let you know.
| | | | | What was the task the end-cllient had in mind? | Jan 28, 2012 |
Kristi Hyllekve wrote:
I would agree with you had they asked me to summarize the dozen or so newspaper articles. However, I was asked to change the translated text to more enthusiastic terms and to pad the articles -- writing more than was in the translation. Since the client said it was for a Visa application and that each of the articles should be labelled with the newspaper and date of publication, to alter them to enhance the musician's talent is wrong. The PM agreed it was an unorthodox request. She also said it was a different request from the original. That is why I started this discussion because I need to hear from others on their stance.
If you were asked to change the translated text and present your revision as a translation, there is no doubt you were asked to do something improper, unethical and/or illegal. On the other hand, if you were asked to summarize the clippings in a favorable manner to the applicant, saying exactly, as to the facts, what it was on the articles, that´s fair game. My only advice, describe the fact, do not qualify them.
Ask who is the end-client, the applicant or his or her lawyer. If the end-client is the applicant, he or she might have misunderstood what you could do for him.
Luis
| | | | | Two different jobs - another example | Jan 28, 2012 |
As it was repeated in this thread a few times already by different people, the story is about two different jobs that came about in a sequential manner.
We can look at the whole thing without thinking about the immigration issue.
Let me create another example.
The agency asks an editor to brush up the English on a marketing brochure for a certain widget. The editor edits the text, makes it more naturally flowing, more pleasant to read, and delivers it. The end client gets it, a... See more As it was repeated in this thread a few times already by different people, the story is about two different jobs that came about in a sequential manner.
We can look at the whole thing without thinking about the immigration issue.
Let me create another example.
The agency asks an editor to brush up the English on a marketing brochure for a certain widget. The editor edits the text, makes it more naturally flowing, more pleasant to read, and delivers it. The end client gets it, and sends it back saying:
"We want to position this widget in the target country as a most fun tool, more appealing to young, metrosexual consumers, better than anything on the market. Please re-write the text according to this."
It is pretty clear, that the scope has changed, and it is now a copywriting task, not an editing one.
It is a separate job, and the editor can take or refuse it, based on his/her abilities, experience, schedule or daily mood (of his/her own or his/her dog), or whatever criteria he/she chooses for the decision. The point is that this second job is different from the first, and since it came in a sequential fashion, it is independent of the first. The source text now is the edited one (the result of the first job).
It is just happened, that Kristi was told the true purpose of the second "editing". They could have just lied to her and told her a local talent management agency is going to market this singer in the UK, and they need the text for their brochures or press packages. In that case, she would have made her decision based on a different set of information, and she may have accepted the job. My point is that even in that case, it should have been considered a separate job, with a separate payment.
I think on the practical side of things, Kristi should focus on getting paid for the job she did. Focusing on the suspected unethical activity is not productive, IMHO. Without sufficient proof and details, it can even backfire.
It may be sad, ugly and disgusting to see such practices, but as a translator, all she can do is protect her own integrity - which she did, as she refused the embellishment job that she felt was crossing her ethical boundaries.
Katalin
[Edited at 2012-01-29 03:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| End client should supply new copy | Jan 29, 2012 |
Couldn't Kristi ask the agency to ask the end client himself to supply the additional "praise-filled" copy he wishes to have added to his visa application? e.g. "Mr XXX is one of the world's most brilliant violinists", etc. etc., rather than inventing whatever eulogies she is being required to invent.
Then it would be perfectly ethical for Kristi to translate the end client's new, euphoric material. She does not need to know whether Mr XXX really is one of the world's most brilliant violin... See more Couldn't Kristi ask the agency to ask the end client himself to supply the additional "praise-filled" copy he wishes to have added to his visa application? e.g. "Mr XXX is one of the world's most brilliant violinists", etc. etc., rather than inventing whatever eulogies she is being required to invent.
Then it would be perfectly ethical for Kristi to translate the end client's new, euphoric material. She does not need to know whether Mr XXX really is one of the world's most brilliant violinists, etc. etc., just that he says he is.
Or perhaps matters between Kristi and the agency have now become too contentious for any further negotiation ...
In any case, she certainly should be paid for the job she has already done according to the original agreement between her and the agency.
I wish her the best of luck.
Jenny ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Allemagne
Local time: 02:49
Membre (2009)
anglais vers allemand
+ ...
F Scott Ophof wrote: Kristi Hyllekve wrote:
Also, she posted the request for a "rewrite" on ProZ this afternoon. I am not certain that all the details will be given to the person who bids. However, for legal documents, one can't "rewrite" the text. That's a no brainer!
You could inform ProZ of the background of that "rewrite". Methinks ProZ would not want any part of such a thing. And help prevent someone else being stinkered into a nasty situation.
Hi Kristi,
if that agency doesn't have a BB record, you are entitled by ProZ rules to create one.
This way you can warn our colleagues, even more so since said agency has reposted the job on Proz.
| | | | Kristi Hyllekve
États-Unis
Local time: 20:49
Membre (2007)
anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | Thank you for your valuable information and ideas: this is what I have done. | Jan 30, 2012 |
Thank you for taking the time to write in this forum concerning the rather unexpected request to embellish and pad translated text for a visa application. I wrote to the HR contact for the company, stated what had happened, how I had fulfilled the initial request and refused the subsequent request to embellish/change/pad the translated text. I said I had search for the company's Code of Ethics but couldn't find it on the website; did they have one?
I stated that I should be paid fo... See more Thank you for taking the time to write in this forum concerning the rather unexpected request to embellish and pad translated text for a visa application. I wrote to the HR contact for the company, stated what had happened, how I had fulfilled the initial request and refused the subsequent request to embellish/change/pad the translated text. I said I had search for the company's Code of Ethics but couldn't find it on the website; did they have one?
I stated that I should be paid for the completed job based on the instructions given to me at the start of the project and requested the name of the PM's manager.
In closing, I told him I looked forward to his reply. I will take appropriate action based on his reply. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Change of scope from edit to unethical | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
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