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Out of the blue (Winner of Chinese to English translation contest) Thread poster: Alan Wang
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| That's why.. | Jun 27, 2012 |
难怪Lesley 没有真正远离中文论坛，还多少有着那一份不舍的关心。。原来她在这里还有这些记得到她的朋友们。。。呵～
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ysun 
United States
Local time: 12:00
English to Chinese
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| 确实，Lesley 并没有远离中文论坛 | Jun 27, 2012 |
有时她仍会来看此论坛上的讨论。我与她之间时不时还有通讯来往。
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Shiya Luo
Local time: 10:00
English to Chinese
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如果我当年听讲了并且记得没错的话，老师大概是这么说的：外文翻译，特别是两种差别迥异语系作品的翻译，难免会加上翻译自己的见解，但是此见解高不高明，要看翻译本身的文学素养。
文学翻译无非两种受众：
1. 有心研究各国作品却只会一门语言的文学家。对于这种受众，他们想要的是字面翻译，即使读起来晦涩，语句都不通顺，却真正是他们想要的译文，他... See more 如果我当年听讲了并且记得没错的话，老师大概是这么说的：外文翻译，特别是两种差别迥异语系作品的翻译，难免会加上翻译自己的见解，但是此见解高不高明，要看翻译本身的文学素养。
文学翻译无非两种受众：
1. 有心研究各国作品却只会一门语言的文学家。对于这种受众，他们想要的是字面翻译，即使读起来晦涩，语句都不通顺，却真正是他们想要的译文，他们自己去解读作家。对于他们来说，这是在不学习此门外语前提下，用来研究外国文学最好的作品。
2. 把名著当闲书看的普通大众，比如说我。这些人就很好打发，只要翻得通俗易懂，三五天能看完还有回味就可以了。只要好看，错译也是可以容忍的。不过，对于文学家来说，除非你是林公再世，或者解读原著的见解本身就取得文学界大多同僚的认可或者重视，这种译文对于文学家来说就是所谓的“垃圾”。
二者不可兼得。
知名出版社大多会因为利益或者其他原因用第二种翻译，这场竞赛看起来也是这样。不过原文本来就不晦涩难懂，不需要当第一种翻译，明显能看出得奖译者为了译文好读才选择一些遣词造句。竞赛举办方非常难做，得奖译文不仅要好看，还要保留原文的意思来让翻译同僚信服，实在是左右不是人。
最后我想引用一篇鲁迅的《野草》里的一篇很短的散文，叫《死火》，请大家看看，这样的文章如果翻译成英文，怎么翻译才妥当呢？
我梦见自己在冰山间奔驰。
这是高大的冰山，上接冰天，天上冻云弥漫，片片如鱼鳞模样。山麓有冰树林，枝叶都如松杉。一切冰冷，一切青白。
但我忽然坠在冰谷中。
上下四旁无不冰冷，青白。而一切青白冰上，却有红影无数，纠结如珊瑚网。我俯看脚下，有火焰在。
这是死火。有炎炎的形，但毫不摇动，全体冰结，象珊瑚枝；尖端还有凝固的黑烟，疑这才从火宅中出，所以枯焦。这样，映在冰的四壁，而且互相反映，化成无量数影，使这冰谷，成红珊瑚色。
哈哈！
当我幼小的时候，本就爱看快舰激起的浪花，洪炉喷出的烈焰。不但爱看，还想看清。可惜他们都息息变幻，永无定形。虽然凝视又凝视，总不留下怎样一定的迹象。
死的火焰，现在先得到了你了！
我拾起死火，正要细看，那冷气已使我的指头焦灼；但是，我还熬着，将他塞入衣袋中间。冰谷四面，登时完全青白。我一面思索着走出冰谷的法子。
我的身上喷出一缕黑烟，上升如铁线蛇。冰谷四面，又登时满有红焰流动，如大火聚，将我包围。我低头一看，死火已经燃烧，烧穿了我的衣裳，流在冰地上了。
“唉，朋友！你用了你的温热，将我惊醒了。”他说。
我连忙和他招呼，问他名姓。
“我原先被人遗弃在冰谷中，”他答非所问地说，“遗弃我的早已灭亡，消尽了。我也被冰冻冻得要死。倘使你不给我温热，使我重行烧起，我不久就须灭亡。”
“你的醒来，使我欢喜。我正在想着走出冰谷的方法；我愿意携带你去，使你永不冰结，永得燃烧。”
“唉唉！那么，我将烧完！”
“你的烧完，使我惋惜。我便将你留下，仍在这里罢。”
“唉唉！那么，我将冻灭了！”
“那么，怎么办呢？”
“但你自己，又怎么办呢？”他反而问。
“我说过了：我要出这冰谷……”
“那我就不如烧完！”
他忽而跃起，如红慧星，并我都出冰谷口外。有大石车突然驰来，我终于碾死在车轮底下，但我还来得及看见那车坠入冰谷中。
“哈哈！你们是再也遇不着死火了！”我得意地笑着说，仿佛就愿意这样似的。
一九二五年四月二十三日
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 01:00
Chinese to English
我从来不觉得鲁迅写得很深奥，他是很直接的，有政治含义的作品也蛮清楚的。
这个散文纯属想象力的产品吧，还是我没有发现它的文化含义？
当然，为了体现它的意思，你要有一定的英文写作能力，要懂得选词，要掌握语言节奏，要避免乏味的套话。。。要有一定的文笔。但这些都可以学，不一定要天才才能做翻译！
When I was a small boy, I used to l... See more 我从来不觉得鲁迅写得很深奥，他是很直接的，有政治含义的作品也蛮清楚的。
这个散文纯属想象力的产品吧，还是我没有发现它的文化含义？
当然，为了体现它的意思，你要有一定的英文写作能力，要懂得选词，要掌握语言节奏，要避免乏味的套话。。。要有一定的文笔。但这些都可以学，不一定要天才才能做翻译！
When I was a small boy, I used to love watching the wakes of speedboats and the flames that crackle out of furnaces. I wanted to see their every detail, but they were dancing, flickering things. They would not hold their form. I stared and stared, but I could never get a clear view.
当我幼小的时候，本就爱看快舰激起的浪花，洪炉喷出的烈焰。不但爱看，还想看清。可惜他们都息息变幻，永无定形。虽然凝视又凝视，总不留下怎样一定的迹象。 ▲ Collapse
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Shiya Luo
Local time: 10:00
English to Chinese
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鲁迅比较知名的文章的确有强烈的政治含义，如果看《野草》里的其他文章，很多都暗示了一些什么东西。那么这篇散文在影射什么呢？至今文学家们还无法在解读《野草》上达到一致的见解。那么作为翻译，如果偏向于任何一种解读，都能成为他国文学家的绊脚石。
文学翻译难就难在这里，如何忠于原著。翻译作品出了书要好卖，写得好看就行，然后美名其曰为名著，其实读者看到的只是翻译的写作水平，完全不能看出原著的底蕴。好多作品我在读到原作之前，都有种“这种档次的小说也能叫名著？”的感觉，读了原著才恍然大悟。这些年美国东方热，市面上流行好些《论语》英文版，看着那些翻译成简单地不能再简单的句子，也不难理解身边有些美国人为什么藐视东方文化，觉得被中国人几千年追捧的也就是这种小儿科的东西了。
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 01:00
Chinese to English
I'm desperate for sleep, so excuse me for writing in English for speed.
1. The reason you don't know how to read political literature is because education and culture in China (and Singapore) has been so comprehensively depoliticised. Lu Xun is just not a difficult author (if you want difficult politics, you should read the Irish). Think about it: he was trying to heal the spirit of the nation. It wasn't a task that seemed to call at that time for great subtlety. I like him very muc... See more I'm desperate for sleep, so excuse me for writing in English for speed.
1. The reason you don't know how to read political literature is because education and culture in China (and Singapore) has been so comprehensively depoliticised. Lu Xun is just not a difficult author (if you want difficult politics, you should read the Irish). Think about it: he was trying to heal the spirit of the nation. It wasn't a task that seemed to call at that time for great subtlety. I like him very much - his prose is lovely. But he's not difficult.
2. Analects - the Analects is supposed to be quite simple. It's (supposed to be) the records of a teacher's words - teachers aren't trying to hide things from their students, they are trying to teach as clearly as possible. The parts that involve C getting into arguments with thinkers from other schools - these can be pretty involved. But I'm not convinced that a Chinese philosophy book is really the cause of most Americans' ignorance and orientalism. They did that all by themselves. ▲ Collapse
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Shiya Luo
Local time: 10:00
English to Chinese
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文学界有没有定论，和我看不看得懂是两码事，我看不懂的东西很多，可能是你说的原因，如果说整个文学界都还在争论，就很难和教育挂钩了。鲁迅是政治作家这种只是因为近年来某些教科书节选文章的影响和中国官方对他的评论，其实他在文学史上以及白话文上的影响远比政治贡献大。那么他的某些文章是以政治的角度去翻译还是以普通文学的角度去翻译呢？
关... See more 文学界有没有定论，和我看不看得懂是两码事，我看不懂的东西很多，可能是你说的原因，如果说整个文学界都还在争论，就很难和教育挂钩了。鲁迅是政治作家这种只是因为近年来某些教科书节选文章的影响和中国官方对他的评论，其实他在文学史上以及白话文上的影响远比政治贡献大。那么他的某些文章是以政治的角度去翻译还是以普通文学的角度去翻译呢？
关于论语简不简单，我举个非常简单的例子：子在川上曰逝者如斯夫不舍昼夜
先不说他说的话，就连“川上”这两个字，是该理解成他在江边还是江上，还是在江的上游，现在大家还吵得不可开交呢。我有我的理解，但是我看其他人的理解也很有道理。那么作为翻译是该翻成by the river还是above the river还是什么呢？“上”有在旁边的意思，那么翻译成above就不妥；但是如果翻译成by，又没了在上游的意思。
另外，有的白话翻译把逝者翻成时间，有的翻译成万物的变迁，这翻译成英文又该怎么处理呢？
所以我说文学翻译是块烫手山芋，特别是对于鄙人这种文学水平不咋地的译者来说。 ▲ Collapse
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ysun
United States
Local time: 12:00
English to Chinese
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Alan Wang
China
Local time: 01:00
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
二年后再看我自己的这段参赛译文，觉得有点不忍卒读了。
I guess it’s long overdue to call it a piece of awakening.
I am just being truthful to myself, and don’t anyone in the habit of selling his version of “modesty” find this an opportunity…
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ysun
United States
Local time: 12:00
English to Chinese
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Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 13:00
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
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Moderator of this forum
Phil Hand wrote:
I'm desperate for sleep, so excuse me for writing in English for speed.
1. The reason you don't know how to read political literature is because education and culture in China (and Singapore) has been so comprehensively depoliticised. Lu Xun is just not a difficult author (if you want difficult politics, you should read the Irish). Think about it: he was trying to heal the spirit of the nation. It wasn't a task that seemed to call at that time for great subtlety. I like him very much - his prose is lovely. But he's not difficult.
2. Analects - the Analects is supposed to be quite simple. It's (supposed to be) the records of a teacher's words - teachers aren't trying to hide things from their students, they are trying to teach as clearly as possible. The parts that involve C getting into arguments with thinkers from other schools - these can be pretty involved. But I'm not convinced that a Chinese philosophy book is really the cause of most Americans' ignorance and orientalism. They did that all by themselves.
Hi Phil,
I don't know much about the education system in either one of the countries you've mentioned so I can't comment much on it. I find the analects to be clean, to the point and simple to read - not simple in the sense that it's "easy" but perhaps more so along the lines of being simplistic. It's a great work and demonstration of the beauty of the Chinese language.
While a piece of literature might contribute to forming one's opinion about a certain culture or society, I agree that it isn't overriding in terms of being a cause to an American (or heck, any nationality)'s ignorance about the Orient. I mean sure Pearl Buck's stuff probably set the tone for an era for a certain audience, but any sensible reader should know that the "historiography" behind a book is something they need to consider when forming an opinion of anything. If someone were to read Joseph Conrad's books and conclude that whatever said in the book is Africa, well then, wouldn't that be sad, in particular when we live in an age where internet and TV are pretty much accessible to anyone with a buck or two in their pockets.
A poor translation, or simplified translation of a classic piece of literature might, give or take, create a certain concept in the reader about a country or society, but America's overall perception of China is formed by a lot of things, from foreign affairs to military issues to human rights...if someone bothers to read the analects I'd think they'd have enough of an interest in Chinese culture and therefore (hopefully) should have some sort of prior knowledge about the country prior to forming an opinion. Or one can hope....
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 01:00
Chinese to English
| State of Chinese education and scholarship | Jun 28, 2012 |
天哪，这个问题要从最基本的概念出发才清楚：
论语是什么语言的？不是“中文”，是古文。而且论语的著作时间很难确定，不同片段在2000-2500年前之间任何时间都可能被加进去。500年中，语言可以发生很大的变化（更不用提不同地方的人的不同语言），所以很可能论语中的语言极不一致。
这些问题搞得论语是比较难理解，但这个问题是语言问题，而不是�... See more 天哪，这个问题要从最基本的概念出发才清楚：
论语是什么语言的？不是“中文”，是古文。而且论语的著作时间很难确定，不同片段在2000-2500年前之间任何时间都可能被加进去。500年中，语言可以发生很大的变化（更不用提不同地方的人的不同语言），所以很可能论语中的语言极不一致。
这些问题搞得论语是比较难理解，但这个问题是语言问题，而不是“文学”的问题。另外，大陆的学生对古文的了解非常潜伏，因为老师从来不教！奇怪，那么多语文课，但老师从来不承认古文的本质：异语（不能说外语！）太多太多人都拿现代中文的眼睛看古文，勉勉强强地猜原意，而不是把古文当作古文，一种有自己的文化自己的文笔自己的习惯的独立语种。因此呢，人家说看古文难。其实不一定难，只是你没学过。
应该生成：我的古文能力超级差 - 我没学好！你问我这个“川上”是什么意思，我不知道，因为没学过，但你只要找一个会读古文的人，他就告诉你，你不要以为你懂现代语就应该能看懂古文！另，有可能这说法有歧义：英文的on the river其实可以是船上，也可以是河岸上的意思。polysemy is allowed.
说借口，哈哈，我不是为你找借口（你看不懂鲁迅的真正原因应该是因为你是个techie ），但你提出的想法很普遍，但我觉得含有严重误解。
Rita - nice analogy, learning about Africa from Conrad would be terrifying... Unfortunately the British seemed happy enough to think that way for a couple of hundred years. My glorious history :/
NB, I was thinking about this last night: Qian Zhongshu was writing at about the same time as Lu Xun, and this makes an instructive contrast for me. Qian: subtle. Lu: impassioned. ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 01:00
Chinese to English
不知道Shiya是不是这个意思，但我感觉很多人说“某某文学作品深奥难理解”时以为自己在说表扬的话，好像文学越深奥越有价值似的。
其他作家先不提，我敢肯定鲁迅听人说他的作品难以理解就会感到非常不爽，他的使命感很强烈，他希望他的作品有疗效（孔子也是）。
人家写文学也是有目的的，如果客户说我的译文难理解的话，我肯定很沮丧，一定要修改；很多文学家也一样，不一定以奥秘为高。
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Shiya Luo
Local time: 10:00
English to Chinese
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非也，当年文学家可不是想写什么就写什么。就是现在，持有政治意见不同的文学家，敢明目张胆地写书文章挑战当权政党吗？不写得晦涩可能在有生之年被发表出去吗？
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Zhoudan
Local time: 01:00
English to Chinese
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自己的译文当时看着觉得好，过一段时间再看，会觉得很奇怪，当时怎么回觉得好。
这是好事，说明我们进步了。
Alan Wang wrote:
二年后再看我自己的这段参赛译文，觉得有点不忍卒读了。
I guess it’s long overdue to call it a piece of awakening.
I am just being truthful to myself, and don’t anyone in the habit of selling his version of “modesty” find this an opportunity…
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