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je ne serais pas en terrain conquis
sur camion, wagon ou bateau arrivée

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

sur cour

English translation:

not yet loaded (in yard/works)/ex works

Added to glossary by Yvonne Gallagher
Oct 25, 2012 12:38
11 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

sur cour

French to English Bus/Financial Transport / Transportation / Shipping general conditions of sale for clay tiles
Dans le cas où le transport est effectué par l’Acheteur ou payé directement par lui à un tiers : sur cour ou sur camion, wagon ou bateau départ;

I can't work out what they mean by sur cour I've come across the expression ex works - would it just be ex yard?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 unloaded (in yard/works)/ex works
4 on the ground
4 at the seller's / vendor's / manufacturer's premises / factory
2 +1 in-house transport of materials (at pick-up location)
2 FCA (free carrier)
Change log

Oct 25, 2012 12:40: writeaway changed "Field" from "Law/Patents" to "Bus/Financial"

Oct 25, 2012 13:44: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Business/Commerce (general)" to "Transport / Transportation / Shipping"

Nov 8, 2012 14:25: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry

Discussion

Veronica Coquard Oct 26, 2012:
Factory door To refer back to the EXW section of the Wikipedia page, "The seller doesn't load the goods on collecting vehicles and doesn't clear them for export." However, I think that Wolf is right when he says that it is best to steer clear of any menion of Incoterms given the added context, as the rules stipulated in the contract really don't reflect those of any Incoterm.
Tony M Oct 26, 2012:
Yes, but... ...I still have faint qualms about using 'ex works' since that usually implies that the goods will be loaded by the seller onto the transport (doesn't it?) — it's only natural, inasmuch as the seller is more likely to have available the necessary handling equipment (forklifts etc.). So this seems to be a particularly draconian term expecting the buyer to assume liability even for the loading... I've a feeling there is a special term for this, but can't offhand remember what it is...
Veronica Coquard Oct 26, 2012:
I agree, Wolf... We got into that discussion because there was a lot of context missing at the time. ;-)
Wolf Draeger Oct 26, 2012:
So maybe the solution is to stay away from Incoterms, lol, other than ex works, which works fine here, I think. If Seller wants to pass all risk at all times onto Buyer, then FCA/FOB won't work, and CPT/CFR could cause problems as well. Unless Seller modifies his T&Cs to reflect how Incoterms actually operate, which is unlikely.

Long speech which doesn't help with this question, I know ;-) but maybe will help with rest of text.
Wolf Draeger Oct 26, 2012:
Some points 1st, imo extra context validates ex works for sur cour, to be differentiated from sur camion...départ.

2nd, different incoterms allocate responsibility and liability to the seller & buyer differently. If my memory serves me right, in FCA/FOB the seller is responsible and liable for the goods up to the agreed place of delivery, whereas in CPT/CFR the seller is responsible for the goods up until the end destination, but only liable for them up to the point of departure.

So, in case of both FOB & CFR, if something happens to the goods between Seller's premises and loading on the vessel, Seller is both responsible for resolving the issue and liable for any resultant costs (if goods are stolen/damaged, Seller must replace them at his own cost); but in the case of CFR, Seller's liability ends as soon as the goods have crossed the ship's rail, though his responsibility last until end destination. Thus, if the vessel were to sink or be attacked by pirates, or if the goods were to fall overboard, Seller would not be liable for any resulting losses/damages.

That clashes with the sentence that says the goods travel at all times at Buyer's risk.
Veronica Coquard Oct 26, 2012:
The context changes everything "Dans tous les cas, les Produits commandés voyagent aux risques et périls de l’Acheteur, à compter de la mise à disposition des Produits dans les locaux du Vendeur." This indicates that the transfer of risks happens at the factory door, hence Exworks. The "cour" is probably referring to the seller's premises IMHO.
Zonia Clissold (asker) Oct 26, 2012:
Further info. The full paragraph:
II - LIVRAISON
Nos produits sont livrés :
- Conditionnés selon les méthodes en vigueur lors de leur fabrication;
- Dans le cas où le transport est effectué par l’Acheteur ou payé directement par lui à un tiers : sur cour ou sur camion, wagon ou bateau départ;
- Dans le cas où le transport est effectué par le Vendeur : sur camion, wagon ou bateau arrivée;
- Dans tous les cas, les Produits commandés voyagent aux risques et périls de l’Acheteur, à compter de la mise à disposition des Produits dans les locaux du Vendeur.
Les livraisons ne sont opérées qu’en fonction des disponibilités des Produits et des transports et dans l’ordre d’arrivée des commandes. Les dates de livraison données par le Vendeur ne sont qu’indicatives.
Le transfert des risques à compter de la mise à disposition des Produits dans les locaux du Vendeur n'entraînera le transfert de propriété des Produits que lorsque les conditions de l'article X ci-après seront satisfaites.
Since it is specified a few sentances later that the buyer assumes all risks during transport in all cases I tend to think that "sur cour ..." is not referring to liability (INCO terms).
Wolf Draeger Oct 25, 2012:
@Tony Yes, I agree, though ex works technically means that the goods are simply put at the buyer's disposal and the seller is not obliged to cover the costs/liability of loading/packing; but as you say, many buyers (and sellers) understand it differently.

The text doesn't use any incoterms, so I still think ex works would work here, since it wouldn't contradict anything and be legally and technically correct. It would then be up to the seller to specify what is meant by a given term in the event of an actual transaction.
Tony M Oct 25, 2012:
@ Wolf This is part of the trouble interpreting the Incoterms, and one of the reasons why I think they may have specifically stated 'sur cour' here — since 'ex works' can (indeed, probably usually does) imply that it is loaded on the lorry (etc.) I have a sneaking suspicion here that 'sur cour' implies that 'the buyer does their own loading' (in a manner of speaking); not sure what the correct Incoterms terms is for this, but as Veronica says, Asker probably needs to study them thoroughly in order to understand all the ramifications.
Wolf Draeger Oct 25, 2012:
I think sur cour would be best translated by "ex works", and sur camion, wagon ou bateau départ by "FCA/FOB road/rail/sea". I mistakenly thought them to be the same thing, but cour makes a lot more sense as yard, or works.
Veronica Coquard Oct 25, 2012:
This is what you need ...A solid understanding of Incoterms. Much more important than a word for "cour", they will enable you to understand the responsibility underlying the terms of the contract. Read here (click on the subtitle Incoterms 2010 for the list of the various terms): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms#Incoterms_2010
sofi21 Oct 25, 2012:
I don't think the use of "on the ground" makes sense..Good thought of courrier since it's probably something to do with transport
S Kelly Oct 25, 2012:
I am wondering if it means "sur courrier" and for some reason the word was truncated, given that other transport means are mentioned in the same sentence.

Proposed translations

+2
1 hr
Selected

unloaded (in yard/works)/ex works

would appreciate more context. Are these clay tiles going directly from the factory?

However, here, where mention is made

où le transport est effectué par l’Acheteur ou payé directement par lui à un tiers : sur cour ou sur camion, wagon ou bateau départ;

where the buyer decides on the transport or pays a third party directly: either unloaded in the yard=ex works or on (the transport chosen) on the truck, rail(car) or boat/ship (prior to departing the yard or works)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2012-10-26 09:58:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, I think the extra context makes it far more clear that this is "ex-works" with the meaning of being "unloaded in the manufacturer's yard". The definition clearly explains what is involved here and that the risk is taken on by the buyer as soon as they start loading the goods at the yard. (from the incoterms)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms#Incoterms_2010
EXW – Ex Works (named place of delivery)
The seller makes the goods available at its premises. This term places the maximum obligation on the buyer and minimum obligations on the seller. The Ex Works term is often used when making an initial quotation for the sale of goods without any costs included. EXW means that a seller has the goods ready for collection at his premises (works, factory, warehouse, plant) on the date agreed upon. The buyer pays all transportation costs and also bears the risks for bringing the goods to their final destination. The seller doesn't load the goods on collecting vehicles and doesn't clear them for export. If the seller does load the goods, he does so at buyer's risk and cost. If parties wish seller to be responsible for the loading of the goods on departure and to bear the risk and all costs of such loading, this must be made clear by adding explicit wording to this effect in the contract of sale.




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2012-10-26 10:27:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or NOT YET LOADED as Tony & Veronika suggest (in manufacture's yard) might be even more clear though I do believe "ex-works" is fine here
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I suspect it means in the manufacturer's yard, i.e. not yet loaded on the lorry.
1 hr
yep, why I asked if tiles are going directly from factory!
agree Wolf Draeger : ex works
2 hrs
thanks Wolf, presuming answer to my question is "yes"
agree Cyril B. : ex works
16 hrs
Thanks Cyril. With extra context I believe this is right.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
9 mins

on the ground

without movement
Something went wrong...
32 mins

FCA (free carrier)

I'm grading this as low due to lack of context, and because many sellers (and buyers) use terms and conditions incorrectly, and so this may not be what the seller means by "sur cour".

In any case, my understanding here is that the seller is including the costs of loading and delivering the goods to the main transport terminal and point of departure (which could be the seller's own premises, in which case FCA differs from ex works in that the costs of loading and packing are included).

So, in the case of road transport, sur cour could mean "delivery and loading onto truck/train", for sea it could be "delivery and loading onto vessel" (in which the correct term would be FOB - free on board) and for air it could be "delivery and loading onto plane" (in which case it would be FCA).
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms

http://www.iccwbo.org/products-and-services/trade-facilitation/incoterms-2010/the-incoterms-rules/

Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I suspect it means in the manufacturer's yard, i.e. not yet loaded on the lorry.
2 hrs
Tks Tony; yes, I'm beginning to think so too.
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

in-house transport of materials (at pick-up location)

Hello,

If the buyer isn't going take his purchased materials away by truck, boat, etc, at the yard, then perhaps he's going to pick up these materials and then relocate them to another part of the yard for storage, which is his responsibility (sur cour = somewhere on the yard). That's all I can think of now.

Best of luck!

I hope this helps.
Peer comment(s):
agree Veronica Coquard : Yes, this could be another take on it; at a warehouse.
17 hrs
Thank you, Veronica! I appreciate it. Bon week-end!
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

at the seller's / vendor's / manufacturer's premises / factory

The reason that I offering this answer seperately from that of gallagy2 is that "unloaded" sounds like it has arrived at the destination, which is the opposite of the meaning I derive from the context (although this was not available when the first answers were made).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I believe it's clear it's "unloaded ...(PRIOR TO DEPARTING the yard or works)" as stated in my answer//exactly:-)
33 mins
As in "not yet loaded"? // As I say, I don't disagree with the rest of your explanations; but if you end up doing a glossary entry, please change "unloaded" to "not yet loaded" to avoid the obvious confusion.
Something went wrong...
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