Nov 6, 2012 00:38
11 yrs ago
English term
Comma or not
English
Science
Computers: Systems, Networks
informatics
“ For the calculation of these performance measures the palm probability associated with the point process of replenishments is required ... and therefore the steady state probability … is needed which is not given.
I would insert a comma before "which is not give." Right? Wrong?
I would insert a comma before "which is not give." Right? Wrong?
Responses
5 +5 | comma | David Hollywood |
4 +5 | yes, and another comma is needed after the word "required". | Jenni Lukac (X) |
Responses
+5
2 mins
Selected
comma
:)
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Note added at 4 mins (2012-11-06 00:43:03 GMT)
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a relative
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Note added at 4 mins (2012-11-06 00:43:03 GMT)
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a relative
Peer comment(s):
agree |
John Alphonse (X)
1 hr
|
agree |
Sarah Bessioud
5 hrs
|
agree |
Lara Barnett
5 hrs
|
agree |
Charles Davis
8 hrs
|
agree |
Phong Le
1 day 1 hr
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you!"
+5
3 mins
yes, and another comma is needed after the word "required".
Hope this helps.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
John Alphonse (X)
1 hr
|
Thanks, John.
|
|
agree |
Dan Dascalescu
: Just insert commas where you'd naturally make a short pause in speech.
4 hrs
|
Thanks, John. Tony is right about the which/that question.
|
|
agree |
Lara Barnett
5 hrs
|
Thanks, Lara.
|
|
agree |
Jack Doughty
: My version of this: "For the calculation of these performance measures, the palm probability associated with the point process of replenishments is required, and therefore the steady state probability, is needed, but it is not given.".
7 hrs
|
Thanks, Jack. That's another solution if the text ends with "given".
|
|
agree |
Charles Davis
: Agree with Jack's suggested rewording (though not sure about the comma after "probability"; it depends what has been omitted): "but it is not given" works better than a relative clause separated from its antecedent.
8 hrs
|
Thanks, Charles. The trend (at least in the US) is not to add commas to set off such words as "is needed" unless they are needed for clarity, but they are not technically incorrect. (I could have, for example, enclosed "technically" in commas . . .
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Discussion
As far as I can see, despite the uncertainties, it seems pretty clear that the relative clause here, "which is not given", is non-restrictive and should therefore be preceded by a comma. But I think it would be better to rephrase it, as Jack suggests.
"Restrictive" means that the clause indicates which X out of all possible Xs the speaker is referring to. "The car that I saw was red", as opposed to all the cars that I didn't see, which may not have been red. So it restricts the field of reference of the preceding noun. "Non-restrictive" means that the following clause gives us extra information about the noun. In "The car, which I saw but could not hear, was red", the clause gives us information about the red car: the speaker saw it but could not hear it.
A non-restrictive clause is preceded by a comma; a restrictive clause is not preceded by a comma.
This distinction in the use of "which" and "that" is not always observed; in particular, "which" often introduces a restrictive clause. However, "that" is not used before a non-restrictive clause.
You may find this useful:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/that-or-which
Usually, 'which' introduces a non-restrictive subordinate (relative) clause, and so we expect to find a comma before it. However, there is a tendency, particularly in US EN, to use 'which' to replace 'that', and since 'that' introduces a restrictive relative clause, and is not preceded by a comma, we can sometimes find 'which' correctly used without a comma.
The car that I saw was red
The car, which I saw but could not hear, was red
The problem here is that we don't have enough context to know what was actually intended, and it could be either. In any case, in all these texts you have been posting, the EN is so bad, there's no way of telling what the author was really trying to say.
(Thanks, Charles, for your corrections!)