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рабочие будут направлены "в простой"
энерго-технологическая схема производства

Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

да и тем больше навязывают

English translation:

yet/while those are mostly coaxed into it (buying)

Added to glossary by Vaddy Peters
Dec 12, 2012 15:32
11 yrs ago
Russian term

да и тем больше навязывают

Russian to English Art/Literary General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
The phrase is in an open letter sent in 1881 from a Russian sculptor to a newspaper in St Petersburg. The author is complaining about how difficult it is to earn a living as a sculptor in Russia, even when you are an Academician. Here he is contrasting how much more cheaply works of art such as bronzes can be produced throughout Europe, and especially in France, and how in France all levels of society buy such products. He then describes what the situation is like in Russia:
'Во Франции покупают все сословия: богатые и небогатые, покупает аристократия, купечество, покупают гризетки, покупает лавочник, всякий по своим средствам тянет к себе на квартиру что-нибудь художественное. У нас — покупают только богатые аристократы для своих коллекций, некоторые дворяне и только переполнившиеся миллионами купцы, ***да и тем больше навязывают***. А лучше всего, попрошу читателя припомнить: много ли он в свою жизнь истратил денег на изящные искусства, а также окинуть взором своих знакомых и вывести итог?'
The author (born 1828) is from a St Petersburg German family, so his Russian may not have been perfect; the client has warned me that there are misspellings in the original.
At present I cannot make anything of this phrase, but it seems to me that it is something critical of the merchants, and that 'тем' refers to these merchants. Can anyone help, please?
Proposed translations (English)
4 yet/while those are mostly coaxed into it (buying)
4 +5 ... and those not so much buy it as are being sold on it.
3 +3 and even then you have to cram it down their throats
4 the latter often talked into the purchase
4 foist off
3 and even those have to be talked into it
Change log

Dec 21, 2012 13:37: Vaddy Peters Created KOG entry

Discussion

John Sowerby (asker) Dec 21, 2012:
To all Thank you all for your input; I only wish that I could share out the points.
Vladimir Alexandrov Dec 13, 2012:
they were persuaded by the sales pitch this is what I see here - regular sales pitch trying to persuade customers to buy
The Misha Dec 12, 2012:
Правильно, "Знамя" дали в нагрузку, а всякого дерьма не в нагрузку дали (хотя и так можно), а нагрузили по полной морде. Корень один и тот же, а usage разный. Я вполне допускаю, однако, что это у меня региональное. Вот давайте спросим у одесситов, бывших и нынешних, кто тут есть, понятно ли им про это "нагрузить". Ау, одесситы!
Fernsucht Dec 12, 2012:
IMHO that phrase does refer to merchants, and to me it means "not that they have to buy, but are mostly forced to." "forced to buy", probably, due to those "millions" :)

Proposed translations

42 mins
Selected

yet/while those are mostly coaxed into it (buying)

Marketing Concept - GP Global
www.gpglobalcy.com/d... -
However, these managers are sometimes caught up in a love affair with their product ... The selling concept is practiced most aggressively with unsought goods that ... It assumes that customers who are coaxed into buying a product will like it. ... Customer Needs: A company can define its target market but fail to correctly ...
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you for your help."
+3
6 mins

and even then you have to cram it down their throats

The meaning is that you have to try very hard to sell art to these people. Even those who can afford it are not crazy about buying it.

Note that тем definitely refers to the merchants and possibly to nobles/esquires as well.
Note from asker:
Thank you for your input; I am just not sure whether an Academician in 1881 would use a phrase whose style is not very elegant.
Peer comment(s):
agree Sam Pinson : or 'and even then you have to foist it on them'
3 mins
agree MariyaN (X)
44 mins
agree Rachel Douglas : At first I was going to say that "cram it down their throats" didn't sound like 1881 language, but Google books turned up an instance of its use in 1835. Another option for the same idea: "they have to be force-fed".
52 mins
Something went wrong...
6 mins

the latter often talked into the purchase

roughly speaking

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2012-12-12 15:40:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Mikhail was faster)
Note from asker:
Thank you for your ideas.
Something went wrong...
14 mins

foist off

Seems like 'тем' refers to all the classes mentioned: aristocrats, nobles, and merchants. The author states they buy not because they are interested, but due to perfect selling skills. Salesmen mainly foist them products off.

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Note added at 33 mins (2012-12-12 16:06:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Покупают только..." (the list begins), да и "тем навязывают" (thosу mentioned in the list).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 35 mins (2012-12-12 16:08:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

*those
Note from asker:
Thank you for your input.
Peer comment(s):
neutral The Misha : I am sure you mean well here, and the word itself could in fact be used, but "Salesmen mainly foist them products off" is resouindingly not in English
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
2 hrs

... and those not so much buy it as are being sold on it.

Remember the old adage that no one buys insurance, it is being sold? That's your difference here, however subtle. Personally, I don't like any of that cramming or other references to forced feeding which are just plain out inelegant.

The Russian, by the way, is perfectly fine. Navyazyvat' means exactly that, push something unwanted or unneeded on that poor schmuck. I still remember how decades back in the old country, if you wanted a subscription to Literaturnaya Gazeta you also had to buy Znamya Kommunizma or some other official propaganda rag, which was then similarly referred to as "nagruzka". Gruzit, i.e. "to load" was a much less reverent synonym for navyazyvat, but the joke turned out to be on the jokers themselves since most of that type of reading material wound up in people's bathrooms, to be used for, um, a certain hygienic purpose. But I digress, my bad.
Note from asker:
Thank you for your comments; I remember the 'nagruzka' from when I was doing a PhD in Moscow in the dim, dark, distant past.
Peer comment(s):
agree rikka : also agree with your little informative "digression" :)
46 mins
Ah, those trips down nostalgia lane ... Cheers!
agree Alex Khanin : But "gruzit'" is not synonymous to "navyzyvat'" // First, it's a different verb, and second, I would say "dali v nagruzku". Your sentence sounds funny, even if it would be comprehensible in an appropriate context. "Oni nagruzli nam Znamya..."????
54 mins
Thanks, but how about Nagruzili oni nam po polnoy morde vsyakogo derma?
agree Roman Bardachev
2 hrs
agree Andrew Vdovin
7 hrs
agree cyhul
1 day 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 10 hrs

and even those have to be talked into it

да и тем больше навязывают = их надо уговаривать, отсюда have to be talked into it
Note from asker:
Thank you for your ideas.
Something went wrong...
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