French term
comme si
Theseus cannot be defeated, hence the black sail of defeat will not be hoisted. Nevertheless, his father is anguished. The sense of "comme si" here is "although / even though" rather than the standard "as if / as though".
Has anyone come across this sense before? Examples?
TIA.
| 5 +7 | as though |
Victoria Britten
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| 3 +2 | his anxiety remains unexplained, as if the sail had not been not hoisted |
John Holland
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| 4 | as if to say |
Paul Hirsh
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| 3 | and yet... |
Lara Barnett
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Dec 17, 2013 04:10: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "comme si (here)" to "comme si"
Non-PRO (1): Jim Tucker (X)
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Proposed translations
France
Tracking the right turn of phrase
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: French to English, English, French
as though
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-12-14 12:00:43 GMT)
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Oops, that was meant to be a 4, not a 5 - this is clearly open to interpretation (cf. the fact that it's posted as a question!) - but am reasonably confident of mine
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-12-14 12:03:57 GMT)
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And sorry for that very long sentence!
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-12-14 12:11:05 GMT)
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"I'm as anxious as (I would be) if I knew the scarlet sail would never be hoisted (to bring you back)."
| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: yes, see my note in the Discussion box! It seems pretty clear to me, although perhaps I'm missing something
6 mins
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Thanks, Carol - I did indeed see your note... after I posted!
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| agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: as if = as though. This is my reading in context.
8 mins
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Thanks, Nikki !
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| agree |
Jocelyne Cuenin
: comme l'explique Carol dans la discussion
22 mins
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Yes indeed, Thanks
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| agree |
Lorraine Dubuc
: as if
37 mins
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Thanks, Lorraine
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: as if
2 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
B D Finch
3 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
Bertrand Leduc
8 hrs
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Thanks
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United Kingdom
www.lingocraft.co.uk
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish, Irish, Singaporean, UK, South African)
Works in: French to English, Italian to English, Romanian to English, and 2 more.
and yet...
| Thanks Lara. A good alternative for my original suggestion. |
his anxiety remains unexplained, as if the sail had not been not hoisted
For more on "comme si," please see the TLF on-line, in particular 4 B (b), "comme si" with followed by a verb in the "imparfait:"
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/comme
"[Comme] sert à introduire un ex. qu'il présente comme conforme (ou quasi-identique) au modèle implicitement envisagé (cf. tel, le plus souvent commutable avec comme)"
The continuity here is subjective; it is a matter of how the same feelings of anguish inexplicably remain, "comme si la voile ne devait jamais être hissée." That seems similar to the examples provided at the link above.
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-12-14 12:17:11 GMT)
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I think the nuance of language lies in the way that "comme si" puts the focus on the constant, "quasi-identique" feelings of unexplained anxiety rather than on the discontinuity of these feelings with the the situation as such.
Also, while I find Victoria's interpretation of the reasons for the anxiety quite plausible, I don't think we know from the French why the father (Poseidon) is anxious in the text given here. The grammar seems to put the emphasis on the fact that he himself does not know why:
"Je ne puis donc m'expliquer l'angoisse qui me déchire, comme si...."
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-12-14 12:40:15 GMT)
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The verb tense I used in my proposed answer is meant to highlight the subjective conflict Poseidon is experiencing. In his mind, victory is certain. However, he simultaneously is anxious about this outcome.
Finally, he does not know why he remains upset; he cannot explain it. That, to me, is key here.
| Thanks John. A perfectly good alternative and I appreciate the nuances you uncovered. |
| agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Yes, "as if" or "as though". From the context, I cannot read the "even though/although" meaning. Hwvr, I'd deal differently with the second part, particularly the tense : "as if the sail was never to be hoisted", and consider a subjunctive if necessary.
37 mins
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Thanks, Nikki. Please also see the note about the verb I added above.
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| agree |
Bertrand Leduc
8 hrs
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France
The Human Translator
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Russian to English, Spanish to English, and 2 more.
as if to say
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Note added at 2 hrs (2013-12-14 13:20:23 GMT)
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as if it's warning me
| Thanks Paul - much appreciated. |
Discussion