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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

grande école

English translation:

(prestige) higher education institution

Added to glossary by Tony M
Dec 17, 2013 19:18
10 yrs ago
77 viewers *
French term

is a "grande école"

Non-PRO French to English Other Education / Pedagogy
is it correct english to read this from a translator's work:
xxxx is a "grande école" , one of the engineering schools...
I'm wondering. Decided to ask other translators
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 better left out, but explained
Change log

Dec 29, 2013 22:01: Tony M Created KOG entry

Discussion

Tony M Dec 21, 2013:
@ Daryo Yes, but surely the whole point is that the term 'grande école' did not appear in the original FR source text, but was added by way of an explanation (!) in the EN text.

It seems perverse in the extreme, in an EN text, to seek to explain one FR term using another one that itself needs explaining!
Daryo Dec 21, 2013:
"une grande école" is so specific to France that it looks to me as simply untranslatable. Whatever you put in English WILL be wrong - there's simply nothing equivalent. I would leave it in French and add some explanation or footnote.
As brain-twisting as trying to translate in French "a cabinet full of Old Etonians" ...
Rob Grayson Dec 18, 2013:
@katsy University colleges in Oxford, Cambridge and London are very much exceptions to the way in which "college" is normally used in the UK. As your comment suggests, the terms "school" and "college" are probably both best avoided.
katsy Dec 18, 2013:
to all "après la bataille", maybe, but just a couple of thoughts. I have systematically used the expression 'elite college' for 'grande école' when writing references for French students wishing to study in an English-speaking country. Which, of course does not make me, or the expression, necessarily right. But I have never got the feeling that it posed a problem to the recipient, in whatever country. For the objections to 'college' one can retort - what about the Unis of Cambridge, Oxford, London + their colleges? to those who don't like 'school' one could retort, what about Harvard Business School etc. So all that to say that maybe another term might be more helpful, for one or both terms are felt by some to be misleading for 'grande école'. I'd suggest then, "elite institution/institute/ establishment of higher education".
writeaway Dec 18, 2013:
It's misleading for US English too It also has to be left as is with an explanation if one is translating into US English. College just doesn't do it, even though college does mean university-level education on the other side of the pond.
Tony M Dec 18, 2013:
@ Rob Yes, I think you're right on that point, especially as it has different connotations around the world. I share some of the same misgivings about the use of 'school'. Hence other solutions look more promising...
Rob Grayson Dec 18, 2013:
@Tony My point is that it's better to avoid the term "college" altogether, since it is likely to be misleading for at least one segment of the EN readership.
Tony M Dec 18, 2013:
@ Rob Luckily, it seems, we are addressing an international Wikipedia audience, not just a UK one; from my understanding, 'college' in the US has a quite different connotation again.
Rob Grayson Dec 18, 2013:
My thoughts on "college" FWIW, I think using "college" to describe a "grande école" is likely to be misleading to most UK natives. In the vast majority of cases, a college – even a higher education college – has little or no prestige attached to it. For this reason, the term is, in my rarely humble opinion, best avoided.
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 18, 2013:
Thanks. article is on wikipedia, not a UK site. "Grande école" has an english wikipedia entry.
Tony M Dec 18, 2013:
College Writeaway cites a college of further education (which is much closer to a FR lycée professionnel), and which conjures up the oh-so-dated notion of 'technical college'; but as I have specifically stated, here the expression needed would be a college (or institute) of higher education, in which I have been a lecturer, and which (in the UK) have many courses at degree level or above. OK, neither has the same clout as these 'grandes écoles' — of which there is no real direct UK equivalent.

I don't think the average intelligent UK reader would be any more confused by the use of 'college' than by the use of 'school' — though it does have the advantage that 'college' is where you usually go after leaving 'school'.
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 18, 2013:
Thanks Writeaway. I am happy you did appreciate it. Nice day.
writeaway Dec 18, 2013:
@Asker Excellent solution. Great reference.
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 18, 2013:
I left the term as is but with an explanation. thanks everyone. here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_nationale_supérieure_de_...
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 18, 2013:
You may wish to chat with the client about the first translator's idea of adding the term "grande école" which is supposed to help no doubt, but is causing more confusion than anything else. It adds a notion to be dealt with which is probably not even that important here. When the reader sees, immediately afterwards in the sentence that the school is part of the Institut Polytechnique de Grenoble he will get the context straight away.
The original translator has caused more problems than he has sovled.
Check with the client, but if that is not possible, leave it out and let your client know why.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 18, 2013:
If the term is not in the original, if this is an addition in the body of the French text, then the original translator has no reason to add the term.
However, with the name of the school, depending on the final reader, a wise translator may consider it worth adding a translator's note.
Before doing so, an even wiser translator would ask the client whether he wishes him to add an explanatory note.

If the original is :
"Ense3 est une école d’ingénieurs de l'Institut polytechnique de Grenoble", the only changes I would make to the names of the institutions would be capital letters to respect English language punctuation.
"ENSE3 is an engineering school (school of engineering) and part of the Institut Polytechnique de Grenoble."
As proper nouns,their original names have to remain.
writeaway Dec 18, 2013:
ENA or ENS are university-level schools with highly-competitive entrance exams. Reducing them to colleges, especially for the UK, is misleading imo. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/college
http://www.ico.org.uk/~/media/documents/library/Freedom_of_I...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College
katsy Dec 18, 2013:
writeaway's link is very good. I'd say, like Tony, that the term should be left in French and explained. The essential points, to my mind, are that they are elite colleges (I don't have the same objections as writeaway to the use of the term college), the competitive entrance exam and thus, that they are for (potential) high flyers.
writeaway Dec 17, 2013:
strange place for good info but ......: http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/public-services...
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 17, 2013:
The article in question was started by some other translator and the term includes his/her translation. Decided to close up the translation.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 17, 2013:
@Asker. Are you proofreading another translator's work or are you translating an original. I must not be very awake, but it looks as though you are saying that the French original did not contain the term "grande école". Is that the case?
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 17, 2013:
I decided to add the term in a new sentence because it is a wikipedia entry but with much explanation. I believe something along the lines Tony M suggested.
nnaemeka Odimegwu (asker) Dec 17, 2013:
Ense3 est une école d’ingénieurs de l'Institut polytechnique de Grenoble. I wonder why the translator chose to insert the term "grande école" in the translation. I think it's better to take it out?
philgoddard Dec 17, 2013:
What does it say next? "One of the engineering schools" is not an adequate description in itself, but it's possible there's more text after this. "Grande école" should be left in French and followed by an explanation if necessary - it depends on the readership.

Proposed translations

+3
17 mins
Selected

better left out, but explained

I cans ee why the translator put it in: this is not just an 'école', but a 'GRANDE école', which has a special meaning (in France, at any rate!)

However, it seems perverse to introduce a term in FR that wasn't there in the FR source text!

To start with, I generally use 'college' rather than 'school' — with the possible exception of certain specialaized establishments, like a filmschool or a school of business administration, London School of Economics, etc. in the UK at least, this level of education is generally referred to as some kind of 'college' (different usage in the US).

In this particular instance, it is in fact a 'higher education college', which is I feel sure what the translator was trying to say by using 'grande école'; so I would be inclined to try and work that into your sentence somehow; if you intedn to keep the original name in FR, you could maybe include my suggestion in brackets as part of the explanatory translation of the name.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 minutes (2013-12-17 19:37:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Something like: "The École Nationale Supérieure de ? (national higher engineering college) ... " — something along those general lines.

I can't remember what the last 'E' stands for, though goodness knows, I've done enough work for them!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 heures (2013-12-17 21:25:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's what ENSE3 is:

ENSHMG
Ecole Nationale Supérieure d'Hydraulique et de Mécanique de Grenoble
Fluides, mécanique et environnement

ENSIEG
Ecole Nationale Supérieure d'Ingénieurs Electriciens de Grenoble
Energie et traitement de l'information
ENSE3 – Grenoble est la fusion des deux écoles ci-dessus (ENSIEG et ENSHMG).

http://www.iut-acy.univ-savoie.fr/dut/mph/apres-le-dut-mph/e...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 heures (2013-12-18 05:37:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Quoting from the French Property site mentioned by Writeaway,

"There are approximately 250 grandes écoles where the country’s future elite are taught. These are the most prestigious <ib>higher education institutions in France."

Now if I were seeking to translate the actual name of an establishment, I would probably use 'Institute of Higher Education' (a title which was once common in the UK but now all but extinct); however, it seems to me that this would be awkward to work into a concise explanation, as it would end up having to be something like (a national institute of higher education specializing in engineering)...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 heures (2013-12-18 11:55:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think, in view of the fact that we now know the intended readership, 'higher education institute' or variants on that would be a good solution; and it ties in nicely with the various -ITs and -ISTs around the world, like UMIST, MIT, etc.
Note from asker:
thanks. see the discussion above
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. How can you leave it out but explain it, and is it a "grande école" or not? // Oh, I see. I thought you meant explain what grande école means.
14 mins
It is in effect a 'g.e.', but as the term isn't in the FR, it should be left out but the name explained in EN
agree Victoria Britten
1 hr
Thanks, Victoria!
agree SarahRuth : Yes I agree that the use of the French term would defintely require an explanation of some sorts.
1 hr
Thanks, Glossia!
neutral writeaway : a Grande École is hardly a college, certainly not in the UK sense. College in UK English isn't even university level, unless one is referring to one of the Oxbridge colleges.
4 hrs
The UK system has changed, but the concept of a 'higher education college' remains closest to a 'grande école'; I think it is perfectly understandable to an EN reader, even if there remain few actual establishments still bearing the name.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanks"
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