Apr 19, 2016 07:47
8 yrs ago
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Dutch term

vergeldende vrijheidsstraf

FVA Not for points Dutch to English Law/Patents Law (general) retribution - criminal law
Context:
one of the finer justifications of criminal justice, that punishment provides an opportunity to atone for what you have done so that after implementing retaliatory measures, the offender can return to society with a clean slate. But as early as in 1954, Pompe noted that criminal justice authorities and public opinion all too often anchored the offender to his offence.

Dutch
In één van de mooiere rechtvaardigingen van het strafrecht, die welke Pompe verdedigde, dient de straf de gelegenheid te bieden de schuld uit te boeten, zodat men na de tenuitvoerlegging van de vergeldende vrijheidsstraf weer met een schone lei in de maatschappij kan terugkeren.

So could vergeldende vrijheidsstraf be retaliatory punishment / measures ???

Discussion

Barend van Zadelhoff Apr 19, 2016:
I prefer 'retributive', it is more direct, more simple, less abstract than 'retributory', which is one step further away from reality.

Also: Retributive justice is a theory of justice that considers punishment, if proportionate, to be the best response to crime.

Which I don't believe.
Punishment rarely, if ever, leads to remorse, the only power that can induce real change.

In most cases, punishment is about fear and attempts of conditioning, brainwashing and the like.

And, who is this Judge in the eyes of the 'perpetrator'?
Ask Wilders. :-)
Kitty Brussaard Apr 19, 2016:
PS. Hadn't seen Michael's reference comment (including Adrian's answer and comments) yet when I posted my previous D-box entry. Will have a look at all the information later on.
Kitty Brussaard Apr 19, 2016:
'Retributive (sentence)' would be my 1st choice As far as I can see, 'retributive (custodial) sentence' is definitely more idiomatic English than 'retributory (custodial) sentence'.
Michael Beijer Apr 19, 2016:
the original question has since been removed, … … so I copy/pasted its content in my Discussion entry below.
Michael Beijer Apr 19, 2016:
~ For anyone who missed the previous question, please have a look here: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/dutch_to_english/law_general/60919...

where Adrian suggested: "retributional custodial sentence"

However, Garner says, of "retributional":

"Retributional and ✳retributionary are needless variants not contained in the major English-language dictionaries. But they appear fairly frequently"

Since Asker's text is definitely not about landlords (see other question), I'd therefore opt for:

(my 1st choice:) "retributory (custodial) sentence"
(my 2nd choice:) "retributive (custodial) sentence"

Proposed translations

+2
3 hrs
Selected

retributive (custodial) sentence; retributory (custodial) sentence [UK English]

See my extensive Discussion and Reference entries.

Since changed my mind (agree with Kitty), and now prefer "retributive".
Example sentence:

The aim of a retributive sentence is to punish the offender.

A retributive sentence is designed to express society's outrage against a particular offence.

Peer comment(s):

agree Kitty Brussaard : With 'retributive custodial sentence'. / And possibly also 'retributive imprisonment'.
8 hrs
Thanks Kitty!
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : 'retributive imprisonment' http://tinyurl.com/hcfvft6 Met vrijheidsstraf wordt in ieder geval bedoeld dat iemand voor kortere of langere tijd achter de tralies verdwijnt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment
1 day 2 hrs
Thanks!
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Comment: "First validated answer (validated by peer agreement)"
2 hrs

(BrE) retributional or 'deserved' > (AmE) retaliatory > custodial sentence

Michael has exhaustively and subtly d/w the US vs. UK permutations and combinations of retributive, retributory and retaliatory.

Anway, unlikely to be viewed as 'exacting retribution' in British or Irish terms.
Example sentence:

Since a compensation order is ancillary to sentence, a decision to make ... not justify the suspension of an otherwise deserved custodial sentence.

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Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

refs

GARNER'S DICTIONARY OF LEGAL USAGE:

retributive; retributory; ✳retributional; ✳retributionary

Retributive = characterized by, or of the nature of, retribution (OED). E.g.:

• “The fact that it is natural to hate a criminal does not prove that retributive punishment is justified.”Glanville Williams, The Sanctity of Life and the Criminal Law 60 (1957).

• “Yet it is certainly something [that] should prevent our dismissing all retributive theory out of hand.”H.L.A. Hart, Law, Liberty, and Morality 60 (1963).

• “Current decisions by state legislatures … to retain the death penalty as a part of our law … rest in part on a faulty assumption about the retributive force of the death penalty.”Baze v. Rees, 553 U.S. 35, 78 (2008) (Stevens, J., concurring).
Retributory = involving, producing, or characterized by retribution or recompense (OED). The only sense that retributory has that is lacking in retributive is that of causing or producing retribution. But euphony often governs the choice of term.

✳Retributional and ✳retributionary are needless variants not contained in the major English-language dictionaries. But they appear fairly frequently—e.g.:

• “The connection … turns upon the conspiracy between the Texas defendants and Moses to subject the plaintiffs to retributional [read retributive] abuse without regard to constitutional rights.”Williams v. Garcia, 569 F.Supp. 1452, 1454 (E.D. Mich. 1983).

• “A tort defendant who has used or marketed annoyancetech devices would likely be viewed by courts as breaching the peace or enabling retributional [read retributive] behavior against another likely to spur violence, if discovered by the victim.”Robert F. Blomquist, Annoyancetech Vigilante Torts and Policy, 73 Alb. L. Rev. 55, 69 (2009).

• “The death penalty is typically justified as a means of retribution or deterrence. When retributionary [read retributive], the severity of the punishment must typically be proportional to the culpability for the crime.”Pramila A. Kamath, Blinded by the Bright-Line, 77 U. Cin. L. Rev. 321, 323 (2008).

An asterisk (✳) precedes words and phrases that are invariably inferior forms.
Garner’s Dictionary of Legal Usage, Bryan A. Garner

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retaliatory; retaliative

The two forms have undergone differentiation. The former means “of, relating to, or constituting retaliation” <retaliatory eviction>, whereas the latter means “vindictive, tending to retaliation” <a retaliative landlord>.

An asterisk (✳) precedes words and phrases that are invariably inferior forms.
Garner’s Dictionary of Legal Usage, Bryan A. Garner

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *

summarised:

• retributive: characterized by, or of the nature of, retribution (OED)
• retributory: involving, producing, or characterized by retribution or recompense (OED). The only sense that retributory has that is lacking in retributive is that of causing or producing retribution. But euphony often governs the choice of term.

• retaliatory: relating to, or constituting retaliation
• retaliative: vindictive, tending to retaliation

• ✳Retributional and ✳retributionary are needless variants not contained in the major English-language dictionaries. But they appear fairly frequently

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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-04-19 10:39:39 GMT)
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I will copy/paste the discussion
from the now deleted original question here:

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Michael J.W. Beijer said:

I think the meaning is similar to this:

"Term: vergeldend contract
elke partij zich verbindt iets te geven of te doen dat beschouwd wordt als gelijkwaardig met wat men haar geeft of voor haar doet

Term: contrat commutatif
lorsque chacune des parties s'engage à donner ou à faire une chose considérée comme l'équivalent de ce qu'on lui donne ou de ce qu'on fait pour elle "

(http://iate.europa.eu/SearchByQuery.do?method=searchDetail&l... )
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Adrian MM. said:

wat is een vergeldende vrijheidstraf?

If this is the query that should have been posted, then it looks like 'a retributional custodial sentence'. I can't make out the rest.
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Michael J.W. Beijer said:

I think it might be a "retaliatory (custodial) sentence".

You're the expert here though, Adrian, so if you say "retributional" is better, I'd believe you.

I found the following (all US refs!):

"Kelly does not claim any of the sentences are inappropriate, nor does he claim a retaliatory sentence was imposed in violation of the prohibition against double ..." (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web... )

"the trial court imposed a retaliatory sentence when it scored OV 12 at resentencing. Defendant also argues in his Standard 4 brief that the trial ..." (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web... )

" did not indicate a retaliatory sentence and the court only referenced defendant's decision to go to trial in permissible ways during sentencing." (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web... )
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Adrian MM. said:

Retaliatory

- looks within acceptable parameters, Michael, though I always associate 'retaliation' with tit-for-tat accusations in a criminal trial, street-gang punch-ups and Adolf H.: 'Vergeltung wird mit Vergeltungsmaßnahmen getroffen!'.
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Michael J.W. Beijer said:

thanks Adrian!

yeah, that's what I thought to, after seeing all the "vergelding..." entries in JurLex/FELOnline* point to "retaliatory/retaliation" (rather than "retribution/retributional"), but then I googled it, and found a few hits.

*FELOnline:
vergeldingsmaatregel =
retaliatory measure
reprisal

JurLex:
vergeldingsmaatregel =
retaliatory measure, retaliation

vergelding =
retaliation, reprisal, retribution

vergeldingsactie =
retaliatory action

etc.
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Adrian MM. said:

retaliatory sentence (or eviction) in the US

Your weblink is US, Michael. UK courts generally do not mete out 'retaliatory custodial sentences'. Retialiatory eviction is imposed by a landlord/lady e.g. for the tenant's 'anti-social' behavi(o)r.
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Michael J.W. Beijer said:

Garner summarised:

• retributive: characterized by, or of the nature of, retribution (OED)

• retributory: involving, producing, or characterized by retribution or recompense (OED). The only sense that retributory has that is lacking in retributive is that of causing or producing retribution. But euphony often governs the choice of term.

• retaliatory: relating to, or constituting retaliation

• retaliative: vindictive, tending to retaliation

(see my Reference comment below)
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Michael J.W. Beijer said:

@Adrian:

Hmm. You suggested: "retributional custodial sentence"

However, Garner says, of "retributional":

"Retributional and ✳retributionary are needless variants not contained in the major English-language dictionaries. But they appear fairly frequently"

Since Asker's text is definitely not about landlords, I'd therefore opt for:

(my 1st choice:) "retributory (custodial) sentence"
(my 2nd choice:) "retributive (custodial) sentence"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *
Michael J.W. Beijer said:

interesting piece on retribution etc. in UK law:

http://www.bunker8.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/cjs/26906.htm (vs rehabilitation/incapacitation)

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12 hrs
Reference:

Criminal sentencing & philosophies of punishment

Criminal sentencing in America has long been guided by one of several different major philosophies of punishment, including retribution, deterrence, incapacitation, and rehabilitation (Spohn, 2000). Retributive sentences involve punishments designed to exact revenge, in line with the biblical notion of “an eye for an eye.” This is based on the belief that some behaviors are categorically wrong and therefore deserving of punishment. From this perspective, sentences should be commensurate with the harm done to society in order to exact just punishment. Deterrence, on the other hand, involves a more utilitarian rationale for sentencing. It is based on the notion that crime is freely chosen as the result of a rational cost-benefit analysis. Individuals will engage in crime when the benefits outweigh the costs. The goal of sentencing, then, is to raise the costs of crime, in the form of punishment, to a level that will prevent future crime from occurring. In comparison, incapacitation argues that effective sentences should focus on removing serious offenders from society. Once isolated and secluded, criminal offenders will no longer be able to commit crimes against the public. Finally, rehabilitation as a philosophy of punishment emphasizes individual offender reform. According to this perspective, the goal of punishment should be to address the underlying causes of crime in order to reduce future offending. Although in practice these various sentencing rationales often coexist, throughout history major changes in sentencing have often followed paradigm shifts in predominant philosophies of punishment.
http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/system/sentencing/
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Michael Beijer
2 mins
Thanks, Michael.
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