This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
прирост
Математический аппарат для расчета расписаний план-графиков
Oct 28, 2016 02:24
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Russian term

падшие овцы

Russian to English Art/Literary Livestock / Animal Husbandry
Уважаемые коллеги, пожалуйста выручайте!

"Да и как прикажешь выжить на скудный паек, запечатленный на глиняном продовольственном аттестате: в него входили ячмень, кунжутное масло, пиво, рыба, изредка финики и никогда – мясо. Упоминаются только туши ***падших овец.***"

Текст о быте рабов в древнем Вавилоне. В великобритании в сельском хозяйстве используется удобное выражение "fallen sheep" в значение неожиданно погбших овец. Но я перевожу на английский США, и там этот термин повидимому не используется. Буду очень благодарен за предложения!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 sheep that died of illness
4 +1 sheep carrion
Change log

Oct 28, 2016 12:18: Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Rachel Douglas, P.L.F. Persio, Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D.

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

Jack slep Oct 30, 2016:
Apparently "slaves" in Babylon has a "good" and not one that we think of by the same. See (Google): Slavery in Babylonia - ILIL ARBEL
ililarbel.weebly.com/...the-life-of.../slavery-in-...

Slavery in Babylonia was a part of the society, and it will be mentioned in this book again and again. It is a controversial subject, but I hope the readers wil
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 30, 2016:
Спокойной ночи и сладких снов! Считать овец перед сном?
Rachel Douglas Oct 30, 2016:
Овцы могут... ... пастись спокойно и не падать и не быть съедены рабами??
Наверно хватит.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 30, 2016:
Beautiful, but two orthogonal voices. Thank you, Rachel! [Still, no sheep, unless we throw in the Bach adagio.:)]
Rachel Douglas Oct 30, 2016:
Zucchero Zucchero! I went running into the other room to tell my husband somebody had shared a Zucchero recording with me. Only listened to him once before, feeling sorry (as also in this recording) about how the guy was blowing out his vocal cords. That was when someone sent me a link to Zucchero and Andrea Bocelli singing a duet. Maybe it was this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjgWVokvZBQ. At 02:13, and then a couple of times more, you hear Bocelli's perfectly placed, laser-like bel canto tenor coming in over poor Zucchero's rasping. But, you can also see the friendship between the two singers. Thank you, Frank!
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 30, 2016:
Please call me Frank, y'all. Just for you, Rachel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzZRxaYAhNQ.
Rachel Douglas Oct 30, 2016:
Grazie, Macro Serves me right for being literal-minded, when you were thinking of access to the right mood. I'm here saying to myself, I've sung that a hundred times, but don't remember any dead sheep! Torre atterate; "O, mia patria, si bella e perduta"; arpa d'oro; fatidici vati; un suono del crudo lamento; al patire virtu... A lot of lofty ideas there, but no dead sheep.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 30, 2016:
Please do not hold back, Jack. Keep It Simple Stupid is my stretch goal too.
Va Pensiero, the song of Hebrew slaves, Rachel, was meant to transport the translators in spirit to the rivers of Babylon, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYK9iCRb7S4) feel the deprivation of the slaves, and come up with an inspired answer or at least not be shy about joiniing the discussion, Jack. I hope you all enjoyed it. A sheep can die from a number of causes, including a bolt from the clear blue sky. Re dead vs. deceased, it is just my gut feeling. I cannot rise to the level of your magnificent oratory, Jack, so I shall leave it unopposed.
Rachel Douglas Oct 29, 2016:
Hi, Jack! They's daid, alright. But one wonders, given that the topic is the diet of slaves in ancient Babylon, if it might matter to distinguish between sheep that became dead through slaughter, and those that just dropped dead - and therefore there might be something not quite, ahem, kosher about them, and so they could be given to slaves to eat.

Still wondering, too, what Macro's reference to "Va, pensiero..." has to do with it.
Jack slep Oct 29, 2016:
Continued with my loudmouth discussion. I've translated literally thousands of biological and related articles and the mouse or whatever was "sacrificed" by decapitation or some other pleasant terms. What not just say, "chopped its head off" or "overdose of test drug," and all that bovine excreta---oh, well....
Jack slep Oct 29, 2016:
Macrojanus, this is Microcephalus Jack who doesn't know how to answer to your reply below. But today would be my deceased wife's, of 40 years, 86th birthday. She died of cancer. She's been dead since 1993. You notice the words deceased, died, dead--the end result is the same. Your " Deceased , being an "action word" (becoming dead), better gives the sense of падшие than dead, which is a static word (something is or is not dead)." What the hell is a static word for death, a (non-) zoombie? Deceased, man, means your dead, dead, not dying. When you're падшие, Hallelujah, you're wearing sheep horns with haloes (don't know what ewes do--wear miniwool shorts?) eating eternal class-A grass in an eternal pasture. You know, after 66 years translating, translators are their own worst enemies. Use the KISS principle, Kiss It Simple, Stupid. They're carcases of dead sheep. You don't know if they died naturally, from disease, sheep-mishandling by lonely herders, epizooty, were downers, fallen, went to the slaughter house, etc. -- the damn sheep are dead. Don't make a big deal of it! KISS! Does anyone really think we go to a Wake to see Deceased animals? The wonderful animals are just plain dead
Jack slep Oct 29, 2016:
Agree with Macrojanus--dead. Translated RAS Agricultural for years, and it and it's forms were always used for "dead," as applied to animals, e.g., Вспоминаем падших The Walking Dead 1 season (SlideShow). Ли ...
Video for падшие, dead
Except the sheep aren't walking!
eduard_ Oct 29, 2016:
Or might as well use fallen sheep, as you said it's used in the UK and it's the proper English :)

https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/fallen-stock-guidance
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 29, 2016:
Deceased sheep might work.
eduard_ Oct 29, 2016:
There simply may not be an equivalent. You could probably just use dead sheep which would mean that they could have died of anything. Carrion is падаль and technically падший скот is падаль as in being dead either of a disease or natural causes but I'm not sure if you can classify dead domesticated animals as падаль, usually падаль is for wild or stray animals and падший is for domesticated ones, I think.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 28, 2016:
Perhaps, the answer can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6JN0l7A_mE
Nabucco - Hebrew Slaves Chorus
Giuseppe Verdi
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Oct 28, 2016:
Canadian definitions:
“dead animal” means the carcass, or any part thereof, of a horse, goat, sheep, swine or head of cattle that has died from any cause other than slaughter; (“cadavre d’animal”)

fallen animal” means a horse, goat, sheep, swine or head of cattle that has been disabled by disease
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90d03
Rachel Douglas Oct 28, 2016:
Term, but for ancient Babylon? Livestock that can't stand up because of illness and are therefore slaughtered are called "downer animals" in AE - "downer sheep," "downer ewes," "downer cow," etc. Whether it's appropriate to apply that terminology to descriptions of food eaten by slaves in ancient Babylon - I have doubts.

Proposed translations

+1
6 hrs

sheep that died of illness

Падеж скота это как эпидемия, то есть когда говорят падший скот - это скот погибший от болезней

Or sheep that died of sickness

"Those sheep died of illness underwent necropsy at the Veterinary Clinic of Urmia"
www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/102320040218.pdf

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?t=98731_2_1&s1=murrain

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epizooty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrain
Peer comment(s):
agree The Misha : This is a great writing solution, only you should make it longer still: ...that died of illness because nobody loved them or fed them or treated their booboos and only exploited the poor dears for their rich wool ans succulent meat. Something like that.
4 hrs
Can you please stop bothering me? Please do not use agree, disagree, neutral or post [sarcastic] comments on my answers. Thanks.
Something went wrong...
+1
10 hrs

sheep carrion

My goal here is to give a biblical tinge to the term as well as to underscore the meager food resources available to the slaves, not to reflect the modern usage in the UK or the USA.

cccccc
The highest breeding density of ravens in the world seems to be in central Wales, where, because of a somewhat artificial situation of abundant sheep carrion,
https://books.google.com/books?id=rUWAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA154&lpg=...
ccccccccccccccccccccccc

Dellasala D.A.; Thomas C.L.; Anthony R.G., 1989: Use of domestic sheep carrion by bald eagles wintering in the willamette valley oregon usa.
https://eurekamag.com/research/007/986/007986667.php
cccccccccccccccccccccccc

They are scavengers and opportunists; they prefer to feed from carcasses such as sheep carrion and roadkill.
https://www.reading.ac.uk/gardenwatch/garw-red-kite-research...
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

Invertebrates and sheep carrion were more important prey categories for foxes than for cats.

http://www.pestsmart.org.au/the-impact-of-cats-and-foxes-on-...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2016-10-28 15:25:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
Not all definitions of carrion require flesh to be putrifying. Carrion adds a bit of drama to the meager rations of the slaves. Of course, all flesh begins to putrify once the animal dies.

the flesh of dead animals
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carrion
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

early 13c., carione, from Anglo-French carogne (Old North French caroigne; Old French charogne, 12c., "carrion, corpse," Modern French charogne), from Vulgar Latin *caronia "carcass" (source of Italian carogna, Spanish carroña "carrion"), from Latin caro "meat" (see carnage).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=carrion

(chiefly uncountable) Dead flesh; carcasses.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carrion

ccccc

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day0 min (2016-10-29 02:24:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
OPTION 2:
deceased sheep

The Sheriff's Office's investigation included a necropsy of two deceased sheep of the 25 in the herd that died.
http://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/crime/article3947591...

I would highly suggest contacting a veterinarian and ensuring a diagnosis is made - this may involve submitting the carcass of the deceased sheep
http://www.justanswer.com/large-animal-vet/7m3dx-sheep-bleed...

There were no deceased sheep. They say the bacteria found are the same bacteria behind a 2013 outbreak of pneumonia among bighorn sheep in 2013 in
http://www.azfamily.com/story/30867059/respiratory-disease-f...
cccc
Two days after the Canadian Food Inspection Agency confirmed scrapie in a recently deceased sheep from a quarantined flock in Eastern
http://barfblog.com/2012/04/scrapie-sheep-kidnappers-say-inf...
cccccccccc
Many basque shepherds would feed their dogs scraps, or pieces of deceased sheep
http://www.intentionhill.com/rawdiet.htm
cccccccccccccccccccc

Chickens lined the stalls in the darkness, and a room off to the left held a recently deceased sheep — no doubt the mother of one of the tiny
http://liberationbc.org/2012/08/walk-for-farm-animals-the-ca...

Note from asker:
Thank you, MacroJanus! Apparently "carrion" means "dead and putrefying flesh" (Dictionary.com). That the flesh was putrefying, while possible, does not appear to be stated in the Russian.
Peer comment(s):
agree The Misha : Plenty of authentic hits for "sheep carrion" too.
20 mins
Thank you, The Misha.
neutral Jack slep : dead is dead, why elaborate with a bunch of euphemisms. If they were killed by a carx, we'd call "road kill" and have recipes for it before vultures ate the carrion.s
1 day 7 hrs
I am not an afficionado of "road pizza." Deceased , being an "action word" (becoming dead), better gives the sense of падшие than dead, which is a static word (something is or is not dead).
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search