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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Mar 13, 2017 14:10
7 yrs ago
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French term

Il n'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails

French to English Marketing General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters Letter to advertisers
This is a letter to potential sponsors of a sporting event. As you can see from the extract below, they've already spoken about the event:

Il n'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails le Xxxxxxxx. Et j'ai le plaisir, pour donner suite à notre entretien de ce jour, de vous faire parvenir les renseignements désirés sur la revue officielle de cette prestigieuse manifestation.

I'm just wondering about the nuance in that first expression. Is it saying (more or less) that:
- they won't want to be bothered with the details?
- the writer doesn't need to go into detail (because they already know them; IOW, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you)?

I'm finding it hard to find something that sounds natural in English, bearing in mind that they've already spoken about it earlier that day and anyway it's a well-known event, especially in their part of the world. Is there something in there that shouldn't be taken literally? I can't find any help from Linguee and dictionaries are useless as I already know the meaning of each word.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +6 There is probably no need to go into detail about Xxxxx
4 +3 It is probably not necessary to present in detail
4 For sure / Undoubtedly, there is no need to delve into details
3 It needs no introduction
Change log

Mar 14, 2017 00:00: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "Il n\\\'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails" to "Il n\'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails "

Discussion

Sheila Wilson (asker) Mar 16, 2017:
Thanks to everyone I don't like to close without grading but the fact that they'd spoken about it that very morning rendered all the suggestions unusable, AFAIC. I was interested in the point Charles raised, but in the end my client accepted a simple "Thank you for your interest in ..." rather than any rather pointless translation.
katsy Mar 14, 2017:
sans doute vs sans aucun doute Just to (maybe) hammer home the point... I have always learnt, heard, written, read, understood (since the 60s) that sans doute = probably, and that if you want to say "there is no doubt at all", then you must add aucun - sans aucun doute.
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2017:
The 8th edition (1932-35) repeats this, with an important addition, reflecting the fact that by this time the default meaning had changed:

"SANS DOUTE, loc. adv. Assurément, certes. Viendrez-vous demain? Sans doute. C'est là sans doute une très belle action. On dit plus souvent Sans aucun doute, sans nul doute.
Il signifie aussi Selon toutes les apparences, probablement. Il arrivera sans doute aujourd'hui."

And in the 9th edition (1992-), significant clarifications are included:

"3. Loc. adv. Sans doute. Class. Assurément, en toute certitude (on emploie plutôt en ce sens Sans nul doute, sans aucun doute). C'est là sans doute une très belle action. Auj. Certes ; je vous l'accorde. Il est sans doute coupable, mais il a des excuses. Probablement, vraisemblablement. Il viendra sans doute. Vous la verrez sans doute. Sans doute aura-t-il compris son erreur."

1878: http://www.mshs.univ-poitiers.fr/feraud/academie/dout7.htm
Others through: http://dictionnaires.atilf.fr/dictionnaires/ACADEMIE/
Charles Davis Mar 14, 2017:
Not so The meaning of "sans doute" does not depend on its sentence position.

Its meaning has been evolving from "undoubtedly" towards "probably" since the seventeenth century. The process can be tracked in the successive editions of the Académie dictionary (though with a delay: they do not present an accurate snapshot of actual usage at a given moment, but eventually recognise changes that have already taken place).

In 1694 (1st ed.) it only meant "certainly":
"Sans doute, se dit adverbialement, pour Assurément. Il arrivera sans doute aujourd'huy."

This definition is still present in 1798 (5th ed.), but has now been extended:
"[...] Il signifie aussi, Selon toutes les apparences. Il arrivera sans doute aujourd'hui."

This remains unchanged in the 6th ed. (1835). In the 7th (1878), "probablement" is added to the second definition:
"SANS DOUTE, loc. adv. Assurément, certes. Viendrez-vous demain? Sans doute. C'est là sans doute une très belle action.
Il signifie aussi, Selon toutes les apparences, probablement. Il arrivera sans doute aujourd'hui.."

Note that in the example given here, "sans doute" is not in initial position.

Continued in next post
Daryo Mar 14, 2017:
the only way it could be used to introduce some uncertainty is to say to that
"sans doute"+assertion "A" [= "A" is certainly true/no doubts about it] "mais" some other aspect of the same question is open to scrutiny - and I don't see that construction in this ST

anyway if you look at the whole of "sans doute" as in [À valeur dubitative définitive ou provisoire]

2. [À valeur dubitative définitive ou provisoire] Probablement, certes, je vous l'accorde. Vous avez sans doute raison; il vous arrive sans doute de :

you will find a turn of phrase different from the one in the ST!

1. [À valeur affirmative] Vieilli. Assurément, certainement. [...]

not so "Vieilli" especially if you take a look at this:

http://www.crisco.unicaen.fr/des/synonymes/sans doute

Anyway, in this ST the rather affirmative:

[this event] needs no introduction

is probably the closest to can get to the intended meaning.
philgoddard Mar 13, 2017:
Sans aucun doute is what you're thinking of, Daryo.
Charles Davis Mar 13, 2017:
D.− Loc. adv. Sans doute
1. [À valeur affirmative] Vieilli. Assurément, certainement. [...]
2. [À valeur dubitative définitive ou provisoire] Probablement, certes, je vous l'accorde. [...]"
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/doute
Daryo Mar 13, 2017:
Sans doute means probably ??? I must have been living for years in a different France (in some parallel/alternative universe?) - NEVER heard it used to mean that!

"Sans doute" means what the simplest translation would suggest: "the absence of (any) doubt" / "there is no doubt" i.e. something is for sure!
Sheila Wilson (asker) Mar 13, 2017:
You may have something there, Charles Thinking about it from the "dispense with" angle does make some sense. Redundancy I can translate if I have to, but I don't like delivering something that simply isn't logical. Thanks Charles.
Charles Davis Mar 13, 2017:
I am not at my best and brightest and may not have grasped what's going on here, but I don't find it particularly strange. Doesn't it just mean "I can probably dispense with the details here since I've already talked to you about it"? It sounds a bit like rhetorical redundancy. People say lots of things they don't strictly need to say when their object is to persuade rather than simply to inform.
philgoddard Mar 13, 2017:
Sans doute means probably.
memond Mar 13, 2017:
For Oliver. In fact we use this type of syntax in French very often. The sentence is in proper French
Andrew Bramhall Mar 13, 2017:
Il n'est sans doute pas besoin ??? Surely, " Il n'y a pas besoin", in proper French?
Sheila Wilson (asker) Mar 13, 2017:
Thanks Phil I didn't think it made sense in this context but, seeing that my client is actually the writer, I wanted to make sure I was on solid ground.
philgoddard Mar 13, 2017:
I don't think it makes sense if they've already talked about it. The idea is "probably needs no introduction", but again it's pointless saying this because it's a well known event. I'd omit or rewrite it and put a translator's note explaining why

Proposed translations

+6
2 hrs
French term (edited): Il n\'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails

There is probably no need to go into detail about Xxxxx

The first thing that sprung to mind.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2017-03-13 16:37:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As you can only translate what is there, there is nothing to suggest anything other than detail not being necessary. I don't think the reason why is important here. Even if it is important, it is not being mentionned.
Peer comment(s):
agree Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
35 mins
agree B D Finch : Though, as this is to a specific person, "I'm sure you won't need me to ... " could be mildly flattering to the addressee.
2 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
2 hrs
neutral Daryo : where do you get this idea of "probability" from ??? // "X needs no introduction" is the idea ...
6 hrs
neutral philgoddard : I think this is a rather weak opening sentence for a marketing letter. If you must translate it, and I still think it sounds odd, then maybe something positive like "X needs no introduction" or "X is a household name".
7 hrs
agree Verginia Ophof
7 hrs
agree Louisa Tchaicha
15 hrs
agree katsy
16 hrs
Something went wrong...
8 hrs
French term (edited): Il n'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails

For sure / Undoubtedly, there is no need to delve into details

For sure / Undoubtedly, there is no need to delve into details [about this event]

Il n'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails
=>
this event is so well known that without any doubt there is no need to go into details - you must know them already

or possibly

"I said already so much about this event that there is no need to go into details again"
Something went wrong...
18 hrs

It needs no introduction

Je crois que c'est la formule consacrée pour dire que quelque chose est déjà bien connu
Something went wrong...
+3
12 mins
French term (edited): Il n\'est sans doute pas besoin de présenter en détails

It is probably not necessary to present in detail

For me, the expression 'sans doute pas besoin' refer to a probability, nothing is sure, but it is probably the case.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2017-03-14 12:48:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@philgoddard: Sans la suite de la phrase, il est difficile d'inférer. La suite pourrait être le programme, le calendrier...En fait, je n’ai pas l'impression que l'on parle de l'événement dans cette première phrase, car on ne parlerait pas de présenter en détails.
Peer comment(s):
agree Hara Iliopoulou
4 mins
agree Abdessalam AIT TOUIJAR
41 mins
agree Paolo Dagonnier
53 mins
neutral Daryo : where do you get this idea of "probability" from ???
8 hrs
neutral philgoddard : I don't think this sounds very English. "It is probably not necessary to present [eg] Wimbledon/the FA Cup in detail".
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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