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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

en su debe

English translation:

on the debit side

Added to glossary by Robert Forstag
Dec 11, 2017 16:00
6 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

en su debe

Spanish to English Other Journalism Article in today’s *El País* (Spain)
I have a sense of what this means here, but I have never seen “debe” used as a noun, and was curious as to how others might approach translating the term.

The term occurs in the article’s penultimate sentence:

El primer ministro también ha anticipado en su debe que no está dispuesto a tolerar dobles raseros. “No voy a aceptar la hipocresía. Voy a presentar la verdad sobre Israel sin miedo y con la cabeza bien alta”.


Here is a link to the full article:

https://elpais.com/internacional/2017/12/10/actualidad/15129...
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 on the debit side
4 as an asset
3 on the other hand [at beginning of the sentence]
References
en su debe

Discussion

Chema Nieto Castañón Dec 12, 2017:
Just as a side note, in case it helps.
The original refers to pending debts (from the very title) and reasons why Netanyahu does not feel comfortable with some EU leaders.
Suma y sigue refers precisely to this; and so it goes on (almost as a "and you can keep adding"), in allusion to reasons why Netanyahu does not feel at ease.
As already said (Charles Davis) those final haber and debe are used metaphorically, and with no actual reference to money or even gain (and not at all as a veiled allusion to greed or anything of the sort). The first one, su haber, refers to that of EU Federica Mogherini. The metaphore refers to a political closed-in-her-favour matter; EU is not going to move from there; Jerusalem is not negotiable; a Palestine with no capital would be a menace for the citizens of Israel. As for su debe, it refers to that of Netanyahu, as something that, politically, needs an action, as a matter not closed or finished; he will not tolerate EU hypocrisy. And he will do something about it -if only to speak up on behalf of Israel.
patinba Dec 12, 2017:
@Carol and @Charles. Carol, you might expect that, but as the explanation shows, double-entry bookkeeping does not work quite like that, and assets in the balance sheet equation are a debit, liabilities and equity are a credit, and the two balance.
Charles: From the article alone it seems quite clear that FM is responding to a negative, and that the Israel PM is getting some kudos for straight talking, and that the comment is positive. Anyway, I thank you both for reading my entry, I now know that at least it was not ignored :)
Carol Gullidge Dec 12, 2017:
as Charles says: if this is correct, it is totally counter-intuitive!
My memory of balance sheets is that a debit is subtracted and a credit is added to the final balance. If you are in debt at the end, then the final balance is negative and if you are in credit, then the balance is positive
Carol Gullidge Dec 12, 2017:
@patinba have to say I find your comment confusing: I would have thought that assets were plusses (on the credit side) and liabilities were minuses (debits). Of course it does depend on whose assets and liabilities are under consideration...! One person's liability is someone else's asset, or what is debited from one person is credited to another.
Charles Davis Dec 12, 2017:
@Pat Speaking for myself, I read your explanation with great interest. You are quite right that assets go on the left-hand (debit) side, though few non-accountants know this, and to most people it seems counter-intuitive. It is never reflected, in my experience, in metaphorical uses of "en su haber" and "en su debe", which are common. Whether this author knows enough about accounting, and expects his readers to know enough, to use "debe" to mean asset, I'm not sure, but I rather doubt it. In any case, to me, it doesn't really make the use of the metaphor any easier to understand; it remains ambiguous. I would argue that if one had to translate this it would be better to stick to what the author has said, and use the word "debit", since in English, the "debe" side is the debit side. English readers, like Spanish ones, can then puzzle out for themselves whether it means an asset or something else.
patinba Dec 12, 2017:
My take I'm wondering why there was no comment on my explanation that clarifies the apparent understanding difficulties noted by phil, neil and Charles. prehaps I was too long or too late?
neilmac Dec 11, 2017:
My take Having given it some MORE thought, I think I would DEFINITELY just omit it from the translation: "The Prime Minister also revealed that he will not tolerate double standards." (or words to that effect)
philgoddard Dec 11, 2017:
I don't see why "haber" and "debe" aren't the other way around. Mogherini is condemning Trump, and Netanyahu is praising him.
neilmac Dec 11, 2017:
Perhaps they meant "debut" (estreno)...? However, having looked at the article, I agree with phil. I think you could leave it out (El primer ministro también ha anticipado que no está dispuesto a tolerar dobles raseros), as the loss of any wordplay in the Spanish is unnoticeable.
philgoddard Dec 11, 2017:
"Su" refers to Donald Trump. "Su debe" is the opposite of "su haber" in the previous sentence, so it appears to mean credit and discredit. However, I don't fully understand the exact meaning. "Dobles raseros" is double standards.
http://dictionary.reverso.net/spanish-english/debe

Proposed translations

+1
16 hrs
Selected

on the debit side

(I looked at this last night, my time, but didn't have time to develop an answer. Since then, Carol has quoted the DLE definition of "debe" as a masculine noun, which has to be the starting point.)

"Haber" and "debe" for credit and debit have been standard accounting terminology for centuries. After all, "debit" is literally "he/she owes" in Latin, which is exactly what "debe" means. The credit side of the ledger is headed "haber" and the debit side "debe". This is from an accounting textbook published this year:

"Sumar su Debe y su Haber y calcular su saldo.
Anotar un apunte en su Haber.
Anotar un apunte en su Debe."
https://books.google.es/books?id=LvMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA...

And this is from a book published in 1834:

"El Estracto razonado que presentamos [...], en el que se hallan reasumidas con la debida clasificacion todas las partidas del Balance en su Debe i en su Haber"
https://books.google.es/books?id=7jHLrDRFHg4C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA...

The metaphorical use of these terms is also long-established. It is a cliché to refer to someone having things "en su haber", and somewhat less commonly "en su debe". The former refers to achievements or acquisitions and the latter to setbacks, errors or points against. So for example this is comment on the successes and failures of Pedja Mijatovic as sporting director of Real Madrid:

"Pedja Mijatovic: dos Ligas en su haber... y muchos fichajes en su debe"
http://www.20minutos.es/deportes/noticia/mijatovic-fichajes-...

Well now, in the context of this article, on Netanyahu in Europe, this metaphorical use of accounting terms is clearly quite deliberate. The whole article is informed by such language. The first part is literally financial: it's about the claims of EU countries for financial compensation from Israel for the destruction of infrastructure they had funded in Palestinian territory. Here at the end the credit and debit ideas refer to points gained or lost by the two parties, Mogherini (for the EU) and Netanyahu, in the diplomatic process. Whether there is a subtext here related to the age-old cliché of Jewish usury is not for me to say.

So I think it it desirable to keep the metaphor. "Suma y sigue", at the start of the paragraph, often just means "And so it goes", "More of the same old same old". Here I would be tempted to keep the financial meaning: "Balance carried over".

It is not easy to see what "en su haber" and "en su debe" mean here. I think the idea may be that, first, Trump's intervention has been included by Mogherini "en su haber", to her credit, in the sense that it has strengthened her argument that recognition of Jerusalem is detrimental to Israel's security. And then perhaps Netanyahu's warning that he will not accept double standards or hypocrisy (on Europe's part) is "en su debe", to Mogherini's debit rather than his own, because it makes it more difficult for Mogherini to sustain her argument.

I'm not sure about this. The natural reading of "en su debe", in context, is to take "su" as referring to "el primer ministro", Netanyahu, but if so I don't really understand the metaphor. In any case, I think one could duck this issue by putting "on the debit side" and leaving the reader to work out whose debit side.
Peer comment(s):
agree Lola Mezquita Sánchez : agree
1 hr
Thanks, Lola :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "The financial metaphor seems strange, and the last couple of sentences strike me as poorly written. I agree with you that, while “su” ought properly to refer to Netanyahu here, it likely refers to Mogherini. This then raises the question of what Juan Carlos Sanz specifically had in mind as being the adverse aspect or “debit” in question (i.e., Mogherini having to deal with what he sees as Netanyahu’s haughtiness and self-righteousness; or is he perhaps conceding that the Israeli PM’s argument might actually hold some weight?). Ambiguity abounds! As for any possible allusion to the stereotype of Jewish usury, I can only hope that your suspicion is unfounded. The paper consistently reflects a viewpoint that is hostile towards the right of Israel’s political spectrum (though less egregiously so than was the case, say, 15 years ago). But I cannot say that I have noticed any hints of anti-Semitism in its coverage of Israel, articles on Jewish history, or references to individual Jews. Many thanks for the clarification, Charles. And thanks to everyone else who offered suggestions and comments on this query. "
8 hrs

on the other hand [at beginning of the sentence]

This would set up a contrast with the previous statement (not shown).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Francois Boye : Any reference
1 hr
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

as an asset

with "en su haber" as a liability.

This is the only way the article can make sense.

In accounting, an asset goes on the left (debit) side, and liabilities (credit) go on the right.

See:
Debits and Credits

After you have identified the two or more accounts involved in a business transaction, you must debit at least one account and credit at least one account.

To debit an account means to enter an amount on the left side of the account. To credit an account means to enter an amount on the right side of an account.

Here's a Tip
Debit means left
Credit means right
Generally these types of accounts are increased with a debit:

Dividends (Draws)
Expenses
Assets
Losses

You might think of D - E - A - L when recalling the accounts that are increased with a debit.

Generally the following types of accounts are increased with a credit:

Gains
Income
Revenues
Liabilities
Stockholders' (Owner's) Equity

You might think of G - I - R - L - S when recalling the accounts that are increased with a credit.

https://www.accountingcoach.com/debits-and-credits/explanati...

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Note added at 20 hrs (2017-12-12 12:29:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"on the asset side" and "on the liability side" would fit best in the translation of the article, I think.

I always remember an instructor trying with limited success to teach me accounting standing in a classroom and telling us that "debits go in the column on the window side" , which you can imagine was not a useful guide in later life.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 mins (2017-12-12 16:21:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However, if I have been able to explain the apparent inconsistency that has its origins in double entry bookkkeeping, I consider that it would be quite proper and simpler to translate your phrases as follows:

The PM has indicated, to his CREDIT, that ....

and earlier

Mogherini has considered this item as a negative item on the balance sheet

retaining the accounting language.
Note from asker:
Hi Pat, It seemed to me that your original proposal was the complete opposite of what Charles has (to my mind, correctly) suggested. But your final comment (which I only saw after grading the question, seems consistent with Charles’ view - even though I think that the original is too ambiguous to warrant the translation you suggest). Please accept my belated thanks for your input.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

en su debe

debe - Definición - WordReference.com
www.wordreference.com/definicion/debe
debe. m. com. Columna del libro de cuentas que comprende las cantidades que se cargan al titular: su debe era tan alto que inmovilizaron su cartilla. Conjunto de los errores o deudas de alguien: la gerencia tiene en su debe una nueva desatención a los trabajadores. Diccionario de la lengua española © 2005 ...

....

Not that I always rely on Wordreference, but the Diccionario ought to be reliable! This corroborates Phil's "discredit". Although I can't make sense of it in this context!
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree neilmac : IMHO the most economical option is to leave it out of the translation.
15 hrs
thanks Neil!
agree Charles Davis : This is where we have to start. I wouldn't leave it out.
15 hrs
thanks Charles!
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