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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

lecteur ordinaire de la chambre

English translation:

Reader in ordinary of the privy chamber

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
Jul 24, 2018 11:23
5 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

lecteur ordinaire de la chambre

French to English Social Sciences History EN-UK
This was the post of a person in the court of Louis XIV. Is there a recognised English translation of this term? If not, have you any erudite suggestions.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 Reader in ordinary of the privy chamber
4 +1 chamber-reader in ordinary (to Louis XIV)
4 -1 all-year bedchamber reader
Change log

Jul 26, 2018 10:33: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Charles Davis Jul 26, 2018:
@Kevin Amadis Jamyn was indeed reader to the king (Charles IX): "lecteur de la chambre": the same kind of "lecteur" as Pilet de La Mesnardière. And one of your sources shows that this kind of reader actually read to the king. Jamyn was not, however, a lecteur of the Collège Royal (Collège de France) as Oronce Fine was. He probably studied with Dorat at the Collège Royal, but as a student, not as a "lecteur".

François, you say "The College de France readers were in charge of entertaining the King". This is nonsense: it is quite untrue. They were academics and their job was research and teaching. And although "Reader" is an academic rank in the UK to this day (one step below Professor), it is confusing and inappropriate to call the lecteurs of the Collège Royal "readers" in English.

I repeat once more: we are talking about two different kinds of "lecteur". It is possible, in principle, that someone could have been both lecteur du roi in the sense of professor at the CR and lecteur de la chambre, but they are different posts, and a lecteur de la chambre was not a professor at the CR (Jamyn and La Mesnardière himself were the former but not the latter).
Francois Boye Jul 26, 2018:
Agree 100% with Kevin's evidence
Kevin Oheix Jul 25, 2018:
I found reference using the term "reader". Here is another "lecteur", Amadis Jamyn.

"...had read the fourth canto to Charles IX..."

https://books.google.fr/books?id=KboW6-hv4aYC&pg=PA429&lpg=P...

"...becoming reader in 1571"

https://books.google.fr/books?id=a-bQWb8NFYYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA...
Charles Davis Jul 25, 2018:
@Kevin Oronce Fine was indeed a "lecturer", a professor at the Collège Royal, now called the Collège de France. As far as I can determine he did not hold a court post as lecteur.
Kevin Oheix Jul 25, 2018:
Oronce Fine was a lecteur ordinaire du roi and I found a publication called "Oronce Fine's Role as Royal Lecturer". I don't know if it means he was a professor to the king or if he had two positions but it's interesting.
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
Francois I created the College de France to keep the king and the kingdom abreast with what we call research today.

I say research because the College de France was the personnification of the Renaissance, as opposed to La Sorbonne, the medieval institution.
Charles Davis Jul 25, 2018:
(Continued) Another example is Queen Charlotte, wife of George III, who had her "reader to the queen".

I think it's important not to confuse the "lecteurs royaux", professors at the Collège de France, with these "lecteurs" at court; they are not the same thing at all, though it's possible, in principle, that someone might have held both positions.

ph-b and BDF: Thank you very much for your encouragement. I feel I've added very little to what ph-b had contributed before I arrived, but perhaps the "privy chamber" just gives it the right ring.
Charles Davis Jul 25, 2018:
@All Pardon me for not having responded before. I have been otherwise engaged today and unable to rejoin the discussion until now.

François: I would say British monarchs have generally been less inclined than their French counterparts to surround themselves with such people at court. However, I don't think this has any bearing on how or whether or how to translate this title. France was certainly not unique in having readers to the king or queen, whose main though not only job was to read to them out loud. This is from the useful book mentioned previously by Steve R:

"Many courts institionalized the post of official "reader," a scholar-secretary whose responsibilities might include reading and excerpting classics, interpreting texts on political themes, and advising their employers, in addition to providing enjoyable hours from the pages of books such as Orlando Furioso, Gargantua, or Don Quixote. Queen Elizabeth had as "reader to her majesty;" François Ier, his “lecteur ordinaire du roi”; and Louis XIV, by all indications, preferred to relish literature as something heard, whether on stage or in the salon.”
https://books.google.es/books?id=MQxKAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA149
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
'Chambre' = residence

'The king's lodgings were under the care of the Grand Chambellan (Great Chamberlain).'
B D Finch (asker) Jul 25, 2018:
@Francois Boye I'm sure that French kings had very intellectual courtesans. However, the fact that you might read in bed doesn't make you a "lecteur ordinaire de la chambre" any more than being a "lecteur ordinaire de la chambre" made Hippolyte-Jules Pilet de La Mesnardière a courtesan. You can't just leave off "de la chambre" from the source term in order to defend an answer that is wrong.
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
@ Charles:

Since Francois I, French kings have surrounded themselves with intellectual and scientific courtisans from academia. My question to you is whether English kings had the same habits.

If your answer is negative, then I think it is pointless to translate the expression 'lecteur ordinaire de la chambre' in English
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
This member of the French Academy is also a 'lecteur ordinaire'

.https://books.google.com/books?id=0iEVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=...
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
The University of Chicago does not translate the title of 'Lecteur Royal'

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.2307/2857118
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
Response to Finch

The College de France readers were in charge of entertaining the King

Personne dont l’office, la fonction est de faire la lecture à un personnage important pour le distraire.

Lecteur du Roi au Collège de France ; Mlle de Chantoiseau, lectrice de la reine.
— A propos, dit-il en me rappelant, Marçais vous a-t-il prévenu que vous aurez peut-être l’occasion d'utiliser parfois votre talent de lecteur auprès de la grande-duchesse ? — (Pierre Benoit, Kœnigsmark, 1918)
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2018:
An example of 'lecteur ordinaire du roi'

https://ledodosouslefilao.wordpress.com/tag/eveque-de-macon-...
ph-b (X) Jul 25, 2018:
@ Charles I'll second B D Finch: it would be a pity not to have your answer in the glossary.
B D Finch (asker) Jul 25, 2018:
@Charles Thanks Charles. I have now tried googling "in ordinary of the privy chamber" and that gets lots of hits for ushers, gentlemen and gentlemen ushers. So, my final solution is "Reader in Ordinary of the Privy Chamber". As the person concerned is giving this as one of his personal titles, rather than as a generic position, I thought capital letters were appropriate, but I have just changed my mind and and only going to capitalise "reader", because this is a translation and neither his actual title nor a directly equivalent, real title in the target language.

If you wanted to put the above as an answer, I could award points. Otherwise, I shall close the question without awarding points.
Charles Davis Jul 24, 2018:
This is inherently archaic and I can't understand why anyone would want to modernise it. Indeed a modernised (or worse half-modernised) version seems grotesquely unsuitable to me. Surely what's called for is the title such a person might have had at the English court.

"Chamber-reader" would do, but it doesn't ring true to me.
Charles Davis Jul 24, 2018:
Reader to the king is literally correct His job was to read to the king (as indicated in the book by Van Orden which Steve R referred to). In French Academy dictionaries up to 1798, it's defined like this:

"Lecteur, est aussi chez le Roy un titre de Charge, dont la fonction est de lire devant le Roy. Lecteur du Roy. il a acheté une Charge de Lecteur."
http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/dicos/pubdico1look.pl?str...

And ordinaire means:

"Ordinaire, Se dit aussi des Officiers de la Maison du Roy, qui ont droit de servir toute l'année, au deffaut des Officiers qui sont en quartier. Maistre d'Hostel ordinaire. Medecin ordinaire."

So "in ordinary" fits pretty well:

"in ordinary. (in titles) by permanent appointment, especially to the royal household. 'painter in ordinary to Her Majesty'."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ordinary

And "de la chambre" means a courtier with access to the privy chamber. In English couirt language "of the privy chamber" and "of the bedchamber" are more prestigious and imply more intimate personal access to the monarch than "of the chamber". I think "reader in ordinary of the privy chamber" would be a possibility here.
Francois Boye Jul 24, 2018:
https://books.google.com/books?id=0iEVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA332&lpg=...
Wendy Streitparth Jul 24, 2018:
From what I can see, the term seems to imply mentor or tutor.
Steve Robbie Jul 24, 2018:
I wouldn't feel bound to use a translation from a 200-year-old book when writing for a modern readership (but I would probably stick to "chamber" for "chambre").
B D Finch (asker) Jul 24, 2018:
@ph-b Thanks! Why don't you post that as an answer? I shall probably go with "chamber-reader in ordinary". The only problem with that formulation is that, while it gets several hits, they are all from the same source you quote about Jamyn. I had wondered about using the term "bedchamber", rather than "chamber".
Steve Robbie Jul 24, 2018:
Use a gloss For background, put this into Google Books: "LOUIS XIV" COURT LECTEUR ORDINAIRE. Then select the book called "Music, Authorship and the Book" by Van Orden. (Pasting a link to Google Books won't work).
B D Finch (asker) Jul 24, 2018:
@philgoddard He was Hippolyte-Jules Pilet de La Mesnardière.
ph-b (X) Jul 24, 2018:
"reader in ordinary"? There’s a Wikipedia entry saying the « King’s readers » attended his lever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levee_(ceremony)) and this 1814 ed. of the General Biographical Dictionary refers to a French poet who was « reader in ordinary » to Charles IX. Not the same period of course but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Louis XIV had his own "readers in ordinary", keen as he was to give the nobility various titles requesting their presence at court to make sure they were not plotting against him somewhere else. (The General Biographical Dictionary
https://books.google.fr/books?id=xuRHAAAAMAAJ - Alexander Chalmers - 1814 - ‎Biography
... of Greek words, and his style is more natural, simple, and pleasing. Jamyn was secretary and chamber. reader in ordinary to Charles IX. and died about 1585.)
philgoddard Jul 24, 2018:
Hi BD You haven't given any context or told us what research you've done. What did this person do, and why do you need to translate it at all? Depending on the context,it might best be left in French.

Proposed translations

+2
1 day 8 hrs
Selected

Reader in ordinary of the privy chamber

As suggested in the discussion; see there for references. I think this is a reasonably accurate rendering using terms characteristic of English/British court posts.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Francois Boye : You have not proven that those readers were scholars
5 hrs
As I have already pointed out, you are confusing the lecteurs of the Collège Royal with the lecteurs de la chambre.
agree ph-b (X) : and with the information supplied in the discussion.
9 hrs
Many thanks, ph-b :-)
agree Steve Robbie
1 day 13 hrs
Many thanks, Steve :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Charles!"
-1
7 hrs

all-year bedchamber reader

bedchamber= the King's bedchamber


Chambre et Cabinet du Roi: Secrétaires, Lecteurs

These positions are those of secretaries (in the litteral sense of those who actually wrote dispatches) and readers. Nobility was required for these offices, and their holders enjoyed the rank of commensaux. There were lower positions of courriers, bookbinder, keeper of maps, antiquary, etc.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/MaisonDuRoi.htm

Ordinaire:

♦ HIST. [En parlant des officiers de la maison du Roi] Qui remplit ses fonctions toute l'année ou de manière habituelle. Anton. extraordinaire.Maître d'hôtel ordinaire. Médecin ordinaire (Ac.). Musicien ordinaire de la musique du roi, de la chapelle du roi (Ac. 1835-1935). Sur ce brick, se trouvait également un gentilhomme ordinaire de la chambre de SM le Roi Charles X (Balzac,E. Grandet,1834, p.234).C'était pourtant ce que le peintre ordinaire de sa majesté voulait exiger de notre dévouement (Reybaud,J. Paturot,1842, p.246).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2018-07-25 13:27:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

T.L.F.I is the source for this specific meaning of 'ordinaire'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2018-07-25 14:01:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Création des lecteurs royaux puis professeurs royaux

Plan du quartier du collège royal et du collège de Cambrai au XVIIIe siècle.

Le Collège Royal par Claude Chastillon - 1612

Entrée principale du Collège de France, au no 11 place Marcelin-Berthelot.
Sa fondation remonte à l’époque de François Ier, lorsqu’en 1530 son « maître de librairie », le grand traducteur d’œuvres antiques Guillaume Budé, lui suggère d’instituer un collège de « lecteurs royaux », en se basant sur ce qui se faisait au collège des trois langues de Louvain3. Des humanistes payés par le roi sont chargés d’enseigner des disciplines que l'université de Paris ignorait3.

Deux postes de lecteurs furent initialement créés, un pour le grec et un pour l’hébreu, mais en 1530 on trouve cinq lecteurs rapidement devenus six4 :
deux lecteurs en grec : Pierre Danes et Jacques Toussain,
deux puis trois en hébreu : François Vatable, Agacio Guidacerio puis Paul Paradis,
un en mathématiques : Oronce Fine,

puis ce nombre passa rapidement à dix avec :
l'éloquence latine, avec Bartholomaeus Latomus, en 1534,
les langues orientales avec Guillaume Postel en 1538,
un lecteur de philosophie grecque et latine avec Francesco Vimercato en 1542,
un lecteur en médecine avec Guido Guidi en 1542.

Dès lors le Collège royal, dont la devise est « Docet omnia » (Il enseigne tout), restera un des lieux d’excellence de la transmission du savoir en France1. Les lecteurs royaux bénéficient des privilèges attachés aux conseillers du roi et à ses commensaux, avec droit de committimus. Une chaire de mathématiques est remplie à partir 1576 en application du testament de Pierre de La Ramée appelée chaire de Ramus (Maurice Bressieu). Il y a dix-sept chaires à la fin du XVIe siècle avec la création de la chaire d'arabe (Arnoult de Lisle), ramenées à 14 par Henri IV, mais qui spécialise une chaire de médecine en chaire d'anatomie, botanique et pharmacie (Pierre Ponçon). La chaire de droit canon (Hugues Guijon) est créée par Louis XIII, Louis XIV ajoute la chaire de syriaque (Barthélemy d'Herbelot de Molainville). Une charge d'inspecteur est créée en 1688 en faveur d'un des professeurs pour représenter le collège auprès des différentes autorités publiques.

Les premiers lecteurs royaux ont été nommés par le roi sous l'influence de Guillaume Budé. À la suite de la contestation par Pierre de La Ramée de la compétence de Jacques Charpentier à occuper la chaire de mathématiques, Charles IX a instauré en 1566 la publicité de la vacance des chaires de professeurs. On constate cependant que les chaires ont continué à être acquises par un disciple d'un titulaire par survivance quand il a assuré l'intérim de certains cours. Le Grand aumônier de France, Jacques Amyot, a eu un grand pouvoir sur le collège qui a été conservé par ses successeurs jusqu'en 16715.

Le Collège de France a inspiré, à la fin du siècle des Lumières, les fondateurs du Conservatoire national des arts et métiers.

Source: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collège_de_France
Note from asker:
I'm afraid that "lecteurs royaux" at the Collège de France had no connection whatsoever with a "lecteur ordinaire de la chambre" (other than the fact of being literate). Pointing out that "ordinaire" meant "Qui remplit ses fonctions toute l'année ou de manière habituelle," doesn't mean it can be translated as "all-year". The English translation has to be in a suitable register and, preferably, use terminology that would be employed in the English royal court.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Steve Robbie : For the reasons explained by the asker.
20 hrs
see my response to Finch
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 12 hrs

chamber-reader in ordinary (to Louis XIV)

"Jamyn was secretary and chamber-reader in ordinary to Charles IX"

https://books.google.fr/books?id=vdpeAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA329&lpg=P...
Note from asker:
Well done for finding a 1795 reference! However, a brief glance at it shows that the English used is very 18th century and not really a good guide for the phrasing of a modern translation. I certainly would avoid "chamber-reader", which sounds too much like "chamber-pot". Generally, that sort of hyphenated form (in this case: 18th century, semi-formal), is fine for terms that will be immediately recognised by and familiar to the intended readership, but not otherwise.
Peer comment(s):
agree Francois Boye : I agree because you have proven that this kind of reader was a scholar.
1 hr
neutral Charles Davis : This is accurate, and indeed it was suggested early on in this discussion. I agree with B D Finch that "chamber-reader" is stylistically inappropriate, and that is why I suggested an alternative more in keeping with English court terminology.
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
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