Jun 12, 2019 19:27
4 yrs ago
English term
Germany
Travel/Fashion/Beauty/Software/Law
Native in: German (Variant: Germany) 
, Portuguese (Variant: European/Portugal)
Works in: English to German, German to Portuguese, Portuguese to German, and 2 more.
I am and/or my child is [in good health]
English to German
Law/Patents
Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs
Verzichtserklärung
In einer Verzichtserklärung zur Teilnahme an risikoreichen Aktivitäten kommt wiederholt (in fast 50 % der Sätze) die Phrase " I am and/or my child is" oder "I and/or my child will" oder mit anderen Verben (e.g. .I and/or my child have understood and I and/or my child agree with all terms, including all acknowledgements and agreements in this Waiver.) vor.
Ich hatte es bisher z. B. als [ich bestätige hiermit, dass] ich und/oder mein Kind gesund sind" übersetzt.
Wäre es besser das Ganze herumzudrehen und "mein Kind und/oder ich sind" zu schreiben und immer die Mehrzahl zu verwenden oder doch lieber "ich bin und/oder mein Kind ist" etc.?
Ich hatte es bisher z. B. als [ich bestätige hiermit, dass] ich und/oder mein Kind gesund sind" übersetzt.
Wäre es besser das Ganze herumzudrehen und "mein Kind und/oder ich sind" zu schreiben und immer die Mehrzahl zu verwenden oder doch lieber "ich bin und/oder mein Kind ist" etc.?
Proposed translations
(German)
| 3 +1 | Ich bin und/oder mein Kind ist [gesund / bei guter Gesundheit] |
D. I. Verrelli
|
Change log
Jun 14, 2019 09:47: Steffen Walter changed "Field (write-in)" from "Verzichtserklarung" to "Verzichtserklärung"
Proposed translations
+1
26 days
D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Australia
Native in English
Works in field
Australia
Translator with Ph.D. in engineering.
Native in: English (Variants: US, Canadian, Singaporean, New Zealand, Australian, UK, British) 
Works in: German to English, Indonesian to English, English
Ich bin und/oder mein Kind ist [gesund / bei guter Gesundheit]
This is the best of the options considered, and also matches the source text.
It is an agglomeration of two sentences, with ellipsis¹, just as in English:
"I am healthy." ∪ "My child is healthy." = "I am healthy and/or my child is healthy."
"Ich bin gesund." ∪ "Mein Kind ist gesund." = "Ich bin gesund und/oder mein Kind ist gesund."
(Actually, the above is also a valid translation, but becomes more wordy and departs more from the source text.)
The following constructions appear invalid to me
"Ich und/oder mein Kind bin gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "ich")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind ist gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "Kind")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "und")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/ist gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (doesn't work with "ich")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind ist/sind gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (doesn't work with "ich")
As some have observed in the discussion, most published 'rules' apply to the conjunction "und" (or "and") alone, not to the 'choice' of "und/oder" (or "and/or")
From the foregoing analysis the following appears valid, but horribly difficult to parse:
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/bin/ist gesund."
For computer programmers that is fractionally easier to parse with unconventional punctuation:
"Ich und|oder mein Kind sind|bin/ist gesund." or "Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/bin|ist gesund."
but I wouldn't recommend it.
The same principle should hold for the other examples:
"I have understood." ∪ "My child has understood." = "I have and/or my child has understood."
"Ich habe verstanden." ∪ "Mein Kind hat verstanden." = "Ich habe und/oder mein Kind hat verstanden."
But unfortunately the source text doesn't meet this expectation, and instead uses "I and/or my child have understood." That would correspond to "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben verstanden", which I suppose most here would not be keen on.
Despite the grammatical problems with that second construction in the source text, it's not an unknown formulation in English:
"I and/or my child have" — 49 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"I and/or my child has"
"I and/or my child has" — 7 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"I and/or my child has"
(Note that the first option covers both first-person singular and first-person plural.)
That's apparently not true in German:
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind habe" — 0 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind hat" — 0 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind haben" — 1 hit https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
By the way, that also means that variants such as "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben/habe/hat verstanden" were not found either.
So that again favours selection of "Ich habe und/oder mein Kind hat verstanden," rather than "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben verstanden".
To reiterate, I recommend the concept of breaking down each of the English agglomerated 'alternative' sentences into two separate simple sentences, translating that into German, and then agglomerating them.
"... ich [1st person verb] X Y Z." ∪ "... mein Kind [2nd person verb] X Y Z."
= "... ich [1st person verb] und/oder mein Kind [2nd person verb] X Y Z."
in which X Y Z is identical in all three instances.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis_(linguistics) & https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse_(Linguistik)
It is an agglomeration of two sentences, with ellipsis¹, just as in English:
"I am healthy." ∪ "My child is healthy." = "I am healthy and/or my child is healthy."
"Ich bin gesund." ∪ "Mein Kind ist gesund." = "Ich bin gesund und/oder mein Kind ist gesund."
(Actually, the above is also a valid translation, but becomes more wordy and departs more from the source text.)
The following constructions appear invalid to me
"Ich und/oder mein Kind bin gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "ich")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind ist gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "Kind")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (only works with "und")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/ist gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (doesn't work with "ich")
"Ich und/oder mein Kind ist/sind gesund." — subject–verb mismatch (doesn't work with "ich")
As some have observed in the discussion, most published 'rules' apply to the conjunction "und" (or "and") alone, not to the 'choice' of "und/oder" (or "and/or")
From the foregoing analysis the following appears valid, but horribly difficult to parse:
"Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/bin/ist gesund."
For computer programmers that is fractionally easier to parse with unconventional punctuation:
"Ich und|oder mein Kind sind|bin/ist gesund." or "Ich und/oder mein Kind sind/bin|ist gesund."
but I wouldn't recommend it.
The same principle should hold for the other examples:
"I have understood." ∪ "My child has understood." = "I have and/or my child has understood."
"Ich habe verstanden." ∪ "Mein Kind hat verstanden." = "Ich habe und/oder mein Kind hat verstanden."
But unfortunately the source text doesn't meet this expectation, and instead uses "I and/or my child have understood." That would correspond to "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben verstanden", which I suppose most here would not be keen on.
Despite the grammatical problems with that second construction in the source text, it's not an unknown formulation in English:
"I and/or my child have" — 49 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"I and/or my child has"
"I and/or my child has" — 7 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"I and/or my child has"
(Note that the first option covers both first-person singular and first-person plural.)
That's apparently not true in German:
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind habe" — 0 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind hat" — 0 hits https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
+"Ich und/oder mein Kind haben" — 1 hit https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"Ich und/oder mein Kind ...
By the way, that also means that variants such as "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben/habe/hat verstanden" were not found either.
So that again favours selection of "Ich habe und/oder mein Kind hat verstanden," rather than "Ich und/oder mein Kind haben verstanden".
To reiterate, I recommend the concept of breaking down each of the English agglomerated 'alternative' sentences into two separate simple sentences, translating that into German, and then agglomerating them.
"... ich [1st person verb] X Y Z." ∪ "... mein Kind [2nd person verb] X Y Z."
= "... ich [1st person verb] und/oder mein Kind [2nd person verb] X Y Z."
in which X Y Z is identical in all three instances.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis_(linguistics) & https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse_(Linguistik)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Michael Confais (X)
3 days 21 hrs
|
|
Danke :-)
|
Discussion
Das Englische ist übrigens auch nicht sonderlich gelungen--"or" drückt das oft schon gut genug aus; wenn nicht "Y or A, or both..."
Grüße
Bei "und" wählt man normalerweise den Plural, bei "oder" berücksichtigt man den Sinn (exklusives "oder --> Singular). Je nach Kontext gehört da aber weder "und" noch "oder" hin, sondern "beziehungsweise" und dann ist nur der Singular passend.
(Aus juristischer Sicht betrachtet, bedeutet "I am/will", dass nur eine einzige Person unterschrieben hat, sonst müsste es ja "we" heißen. In diesem Fall ist "my child has understood" einfach Unfug: Man kann grundsätzlich nicht bestätigen, was ein anderer Mensch angeblich denkt, und mit "agree" ist es ähnlich.)
Wenn mit einem der Subjektteile eine 1. Person genannt wird (ich oder wir), dann ist das Gesamtsubjekt austauschbar mit wir; Verb und Pronomen werden entsprechend in die 1. Person Plural gesetzt.
ich / wir + er / sie (Plural): 1. Person Plural (= wir) haben uns über unsere Geschenke gefreut.
Häufig wird zur Verdeutlichung der Person das pluralische Pronomen wir oder ihr eingefügt. Man spricht dann auch von einer Herausstellung des Subjekts nach links:
Meine Frau und ich, wir haben uns auseinandergelebt (Jaeger). Du und Lucretius allein, ihr habt Rom zu einem neuen Griechenland gemacht (Wilder).
Denn „und” ist eine Option, also Plural!