Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Spanish term or phrase:
El pésame y perra mora
English translation:
Two popular dances
Added to glossary by
Toni Castano
Jul 1, 2019 18:54
4 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term
United States
Don't just say it, say it right!
Native in: Spanish 
, English
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
el pésame y perra mora
Spanish to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
poesía barroca española - El baile de la Chacona
I have done a lot of research for 'perra mora' and supposedly it's an insult mostly thrown at Jews and Moors. Somewhere I saw it translated as 'moorish bitch'. I'd be interested to hear your take on this, and how it fits the context. Many thanks in advance!
El baile de la chacona
encierra la vida bona.
¡Qué de veces ha intentado
aquesta noble señora,
con la alegre zarabanda,
**el pésame y perra mora,**
entrarse por los resquicios
de las casas religiosas
a inquietar la honestidad
que en las santas celdas mora!
¡Cuántas fue vituperada
de los mismos que la adoran!
Porque imagina el lascivo
y al que es necio se le antoja.
El baile de la chacona
encierra la vida bona.
¡Qué de veces ha intentado
aquesta noble señora,
con la alegre zarabanda,
**el pésame y perra mora,**
entrarse por los resquicios
de las casas religiosas
a inquietar la honestidad
que en las santas celdas mora!
¡Cuántas fue vituperada
de los mismos que la adoran!
Porque imagina el lascivo
y al que es necio se le antoja.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +4 | two popular dances (untranslatable??? |
Toni Castano
|
| 3 +1 | the mead-and-sympathy dance and the boorish-moorish harlot jig |
Adrian MM.
|
Change log
Jul 4, 2019 09:17: Toni Castano changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/596960">Lydia De Jorge's</a> old entry - "el pésame y perra mora"" to ""two popular dances (untranslatable???""
Mar 30, 2023 18:44: Toni Castano changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/566177">Toni Castano's</a> old entry - "el pésame y perra mora"" to ""two popular dances""
Proposed translations
+4
33 mins
Toni Castano
Spain
Spain
Native in Spanish
Specializes in field
Spain
PER ASPERA AD ASTRA
Native in: Spanish
Works in: German to Spanish, Spanish to German, English to Spanish, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
two popular dances (untranslatable???
Yes, I agree with you that “perra mora” is a very offensive insult (= Moorish bitch), but in this case the author, my admired Cervantes, is mentioning two dances that were popular at his time. I didn´t know that myself, I admit. I could have never figured out that two dances are meant here… but they are according to the two (trustworthy, in my view) references below.
If both terms can be and should be rendered into English is debatable. To be able to translate them, a bit more of research would be indispensable. The English version I found offers no translation, but the two names in italics and a note below (what is very significant by itself).
Be that as it may, I´m sure these two links might be very helpful to support your further research.
Page 773:
https://books.google.es/books?id=thg-e85K180C&pg=PA773&lpg=P...
Page 328:
https://books.google.es/books?id=IdugCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=P...
If both terms can be and should be rendered into English is debatable. To be able to translate them, a bit more of research would be indispensable. The English version I found offers no translation, but the two names in italics and a note below (what is very significant by itself).
Be that as it may, I´m sure these two links might be very helpful to support your further research.
Page 773:
https://books.google.es/books?id=thg-e85K180C&pg=PA773&lpg=P...
Page 328:
https://books.google.es/books?id=IdugCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=P...
Note from asker:
| Thank you! Indeed they are helpful! |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Cecilia Gowar
: https://www.discogs.com/composition/f34da63b-df1d-46e4-84d1-...
15 mins
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Thank you Cecilia.
|
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| agree |
José Patrício
29 mins
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Gracias José Patricio.
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| agree |
Charles Davis
16 hrs
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Thank you Charles.
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| agree |
JohnMcDove
21 hrs
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Gracias John.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Many thanks!"
+1
3 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
the mead-and-sympathy dance and the boorish-moorish harlot jig
Quintessentially (flat-footed) English Morris dancing would of course be incongruous, but the persistent rumo(u)rs of a Moorish conection are still worthy of note.
Perra can also mean a whore: Langenscheidt DEU/ESP 'eine Hure'.
PS 'untranslatable' doesn't mean a stab (excuse the criminal overtones in this violent day and age) shouldn't be made.
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Note added at 14 hrs (2019-07-02 09:08:12 GMT)
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for dance, also read 'twirl' to get away from the 'twerking' narrative.
Perra can also mean a whore: Langenscheidt DEU/ESP 'eine Hure'.
PS 'untranslatable' doesn't mean a stab (excuse the criminal overtones in this violent day and age) shouldn't be made.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2019-07-02 09:08:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
for dance, also read 'twirl' to get away from the 'twerking' narrative.
Example sentence:
It is possible that the word Morris is derived from the word ‘Moorish' or ‘morisco' (a derogatory term meaning ‘little Moors'). but it is pretty certain that, whatever the origin of the word, there is no evidence that the dance came from the Moors .
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
neilmac
: Best laugh I've had all day :-)
19 hrs
|
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Thanks. Funnliy enough, on my Spanish side (national ballet-company dancing aunt), there may well have been forbears who had been acquainted with both of these 'dirty dances'.
|
Reference comments
26 mins
Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Jamaica
Native in English
Specializes in field
Jamaica
Translating the Ideas Behind the Words
Native in: English (Variant: British)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
32
Reference:
Refs. only
https://books.google.com.jm/books?id=sG0bAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT3752&...
Delphi Complete Works of Miguel de Cervantes (Illustrated)
By Miguel de Cervantes
http://rsonarefibris.blogspot.com/2010/08/di-perra-mora.html
****Perra Mora: Baile español que data aproximadamente del siglo XVI. De ritmo quinario, no se posee descripción coreográfica, pero Cervantes lo sitúa en el ámbito de la zarabanda, el pésame-dello y la chacona en su La Ilustre Fregona.*** La música que se conserva es de Pedro Guerrero, un compositor del que sabemos pocas cosas y que queda oscurecido por ser hermano de una de las mayores estrellas del Renacimiento español. Además de hermano de Francisco fue su primer maestro de música, por lo que ya tendría cabida en la historia de la música. Su vida transcurrió entre su Sevilla natal e Italia, a la que llegó alrededor de 1560. Se estableció en Roma y allí fue cantor en Santa María la Mayor. Conservamos obras suyas publicadas por Fuenllana, Galilei, Pisador, Elústiza y Samuel Rubio. Esta es una de sus obras, Di, perra mora, una pequeña joya que vale la pena escuchar (a pesar de su título tan políticamente incorrecto en los días que corren, mas no por aquellos entonces), conservada en el Cancionero de Medinaceli. Se trata de una canción a cuatro voces cuyo original se encuentra en la Biblioteca de Medinaceli.
I haven't found any links/translation indicating "moorish b***", so I don't know how that fits in, but I didn't look to hard.
Delphi Complete Works of Miguel de Cervantes (Illustrated)
By Miguel de Cervantes
http://rsonarefibris.blogspot.com/2010/08/di-perra-mora.html
****Perra Mora: Baile español que data aproximadamente del siglo XVI. De ritmo quinario, no se posee descripción coreográfica, pero Cervantes lo sitúa en el ámbito de la zarabanda, el pésame-dello y la chacona en su La Ilustre Fregona.*** La música que se conserva es de Pedro Guerrero, un compositor del que sabemos pocas cosas y que queda oscurecido por ser hermano de una de las mayores estrellas del Renacimiento español. Además de hermano de Francisco fue su primer maestro de música, por lo que ya tendría cabida en la historia de la música. Su vida transcurrió entre su Sevilla natal e Italia, a la que llegó alrededor de 1560. Se estableció en Roma y allí fue cantor en Santa María la Mayor. Conservamos obras suyas publicadas por Fuenllana, Galilei, Pisador, Elústiza y Samuel Rubio. Esta es una de sus obras, Di, perra mora, una pequeña joya que vale la pena escuchar (a pesar de su título tan políticamente incorrecto en los días que corren, mas no por aquellos entonces), conservada en el Cancionero de Medinaceli. Se trata de una canción a cuatro voces cuyo original se encuentra en la Biblioteca de Medinaceli.
I haven't found any links/translation indicating "moorish b***", so I don't know how that fits in, but I didn't look to hard.
Note from asker:
| I'm inclined to think it makes reference to the dance but there are several documents such as:https://books.google.com/books?id=Gr8bDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT207&lpg=PT207&dq=perra+mora+como+insulto&source=bl&ots=FSc3T3RLKt&sig=ACfU3U0szIwjyoQ26RANTn2nUacpFoWruw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8m9D3uJTjAhXgB50JHWmxAosQ6AEwD3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=perra%20mora%20como%20insulto&f=false |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Toni Castano
: Yes, two popular dances at Cervantes´ time. You should have posted it as an answer.
7 mins
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Thanks Toni. Appreciate it, but I was rushing something else and I had not done sufficient research!
|
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| agree |
Cecilia Gowar
22 mins
|
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Thank you Cecilia.
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| agree |
JohnMcDove
22 hrs
|
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Thanks John.
|
53 mins
Cecilia Gowar
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in Spanish
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
I read the Alethiometer
Native in: Spanish
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English, French to Spanish, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
227
Reference:
In the flesh, so to speak...
Note from asker:
| Many thanks! |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Toni Castano
: I know Jordi Savall´s music very well. His contribution to the rediscovery of Renaissance music is invaluable.
1 hr
|
| agree |
JohnMcDove
21 hrs
|
Discussion
Here's a fun page about sexy dancing in the Renaissance, particularly la volta, a "a lewd and unchaste dance", which Elizabeth I apparently enjoyed:
https://earlymusicmuse.com/lavolta/
Howard Mancing defines them, not very usefully, in his Cervantes Encyclopedia:
"Pésame dello. A popular festive dance based on a line of poetry meaning 'I'm sorry about it.'"
"Perra mora. A popular dance."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GH9zBQZbbBQC
They were probably lively and sexy. They're associated in your text with two dances, the chacona and the zarabanda, that were notoriously lascivious, especially the latter. In the seventeenth century they banned actresses from dancing the zarabanda on stage in the public theatres on grounds of indecency. Here the Diccionario de autoridades definition of zarabanda from 1739:
"Tañido, y danza viva, y alegre, que se hace con repetidos movimientos del cuerpo poco modestos."
Di, perra mora, Tell me, filthy [Moorish] bitch, di, matadora, Tell me, murderess - https://calperformances.org/learn/program_notes/2013/pn_sava...