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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Sep 12, 2019 11:05
4 yrs ago
5 viewers *
French term

Veuf de

Non-PRO French to English Law/Patents General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters on a death certificate
Hello,
I am translating a French death certificate and am stuck on the term "Veuf de". Would this be translated as just simply "widow". The deceased person is male. Many thanks for your help!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 (Name of) surviving spouse
4 widower
3 +1 husband of the late
4 survived by his wife, Mrs X
Change log

Sep 12, 2019 11:16: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Law/Patents" , "Field (write-in)" from " Title of a department within a government ministry." to "on a death certificate"

Sep 12, 2019 11:28: Tony M changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Rob Grayson, abe(L)solano, Tony M

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Discussion

Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
I am sorry to have upset you Yvonne, this was clearly not my intention.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 12, 2019:
"The correct answer was "Widower of" not simply "Widower". Well, a bit rich. The original heading should have been veuf de+ (female) name. The point was that you were saying "male" and "widow" in your question so my main aim was to point out that error (and also the error in your main heading). I did say "widower of" (including in BOLD at 12.59) several times as well. The point is that your question was not clear at all but was totally confused/ing as phrased. And you kept insisting that this man had a surviving wife and sent us all down this rabbit hole. So, I assume she was his DEAD wife after all that?
Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
I am sorry Yvonne, I didn't mean to upset anyone. The correct answer was "Widower of" not simply "Widower". However, the whole thing hinged on my being confused as to why they would put that for someone whom I thought was not dead, i.e. the wife of the deceased. I was under the assumption that he was survived by his wife, in which case it seemed logical to write "Veuve" but this was not the case. Clarity came after having the discussion with many contributions from different contributors eventually culminating with B D Finch's suggestion to just simply call. As I felt that all contributions were helpful, I feel it would somehow be unfair to grade anyone answer. I hope I am not waffiling again.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 12, 2019:
@ Asker I'm curious to know why you're not grading this when my answer was right from the beginning and IS what veuf (de) means? As Eliza said veuf = widower (not husband or spouse for that matter.)
Eliza Hall Sep 12, 2019:
Mystery solved! Yay Thanks for posting the update.
Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
Thank you all for your input to the discussion. I did what @B D Finch suggested and called the issuing authority. It turns out that the deceased was a widower, his wife having passed away a few years earlier hence he was "Veuf de - Widower of". I was overthinking it all I guess. Thank you once again for your time and contribution. I love this community.
Eliza Hall Sep 12, 2019:
Are you 100% sure of the genders? Are you sure the surviving spouse is female and the deceased spouse was male?

Gay marriage has been legal in France since 2013. And of course, there are a lot of names that can be either gender (Frédérique, Claude and Dominique are probably the most common examples, but there are more: google prénoms épicènes).

And then there are names whose gender can be confusing to native English speakers -- I mention this because I see you are a native English and Kiswahili speaker educated in England. Examples of potentially confusing names: if it ends with Marie it may be male (Jean-Marie, Etienne-Marie, Gaël-Marie and André-Marie are male, though Andrée-Marie is female), but if it starts with Marie it's normally female (Marie-Claire, Marie-Claude, Marie-Jeanne...).

PS: Ignore Polyglot. "Husband of" is literally never the correct translation of "Veuf de." Veuf/veuve mean widower/widow, not husband/wife. The turn of phrase "veuf/veuve de [X]" means "widower/widow of [name or description of the deceased spouse]." https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/veuf
B D Finch Sep 12, 2019:
@Asker A phone call to the issuing authority might elucidate why they used the masculine form "veuf" and whether it is simply a mistake.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 12, 2019:
So can we tease this out exactly
You say that "There is a table with two columns:
the one on the left with name, surname, date of birth, "veuf de", etc. So what's the etc>? And whose name? The deceased man?
"and on the right has the details filled in. In this case, the name of the surviving widow is filled in"
So, definitely a man's name in left column and woman's on right? And veuf de is in left column? What is immediately before and after veuf de? It's possible it's a grammatical error though it seems unlikely for an official form. So, something neutral like "name of surviving spouse" (which can be either sex) might work best and get away from widow/husband/wife.
Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
@Yvonne, this is exactly why I was hesitating and why I came here to ask. It doesn't make sense.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 12, 2019:
except that "veuf" is French for widower (male) and "veuve" is a widow so there is still confusion or an error somewhere?
Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
I apologise for confusing everyone. @Yvonne Gallagher, the deceased is a male. He is survived by his wife, i.e. widow, and she is referred to as "veuf de". I hope this clears up the confusion. Many thanks!
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 12, 2019:
widower of

You keep saying "widow" which is a female and I assume she is the one who is dead? So simply "widower of" followed by her name (dead woman) is all that's needed.
Angelica Christin (asker) Sep 12, 2019:
It is a French death certificate. It is not a standard form but a a certificate that is specifically issued for the deceased even the the language and format is standard. The "Veuf de" is followed by the widow's name who is still alive. Now I am wondering whether I should translate the term as just "Widow" or "Whose widow is" or as Polyglot says "Husband of".
Tony M Sep 12, 2019:
@ Asker Is this a pre-printed form? The inconsistency between 'veuf' (= widwoer, a man) and the apparently male 'husband' needs understanding; is it possible the deceased person was in fact female, with some confusion because of te name? Is it explicitly stated they were male? What country is this from? Same-sex marriage is now possible in quite a few countries.
If this is a pre-printed word, it could simply be that the person who filled out the form failed to adjust it.
Equally, is it explicitly stated / clear from their name if the surviving person is indeed male?

Isn't it in fact saying that Mr. X was a widower, his wife Mrs X having already died some time earlier?

Proposed translations

3 mins

widower

for a male

You need to give a full sentence at least

"Title of a department within a government ministry" is wrong as your heading?
Note from asker:
Thanks for pointing that out Yvonne. I didn't notice the title. There is no full sentence, it is just that. There is a table with two columns: the one on the left with name, surname, date of birth, "veuf de", etc. and on the right has the details filled in. In this case, the name of the surviving widow is filled in.
Something went wrong...
+1
10 mins

husband of the late

another alternative
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : But not now we have additional context. Merely changing 'husband' for 'wife' does not solve the problem, because the surviving spouse's name follows.
16 mins
this is harsh in that we're not mind-readers
agree writeaway : was perfectly correct before the actual context was revealed. now that the context has been clarified, the word husband simply has to be replaced by the word wife or even spouse
1 hr
thanks for that honest reaction -
agree Rachel Fell
22 hrs
Something went wrong...
55 mins

survived by his wife, Mrs X

Ah, now that vital extra context suddenly makes it clear! It is a way of expressing it that at first seems perhaps surprising to our anglophone ears!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2019-09-12 12:02:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In EN, we usually consider widow/er as referring to the surviving partner, not the deceased one; but I guess it theoretically works both ways round, if we take it as meaning 'separated by bereavment'
Peer comment(s):
neutral mchd : c'est un peu long à insérer dans un tableau à colonnes ....
38 mins
It seems to me that in this kind of document, translation accuracy is more important than the mere aesthetics of page layout!
Something went wrong...
+3
58 mins

(Name of) surviving spouse

Based on the asker's comment in the Discussion, and the use of "surviving spouse" below:

https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organisations-you-need-to-c...

And some blank template death certificates, e.g.

http://templatelab.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/death-cert...
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway
4 mins
neutral Tony M : As I said, but this would be slightly clumsy to fit in the existing formulation... (see too objection from mchd)
1 hr
agree Rachel Fell
21 hrs
agree mchd : je ne prête pas aux autres mes intentions, mais votre formulation peut s'insérer plus facilement dans une colonne !
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
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