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Dec 11, 2019 16:34
4 yrs ago
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German term

graduelles Argument

German to English Marketing Marketing / Market Research
Dear colleagues,

I'm translating the book AI in Marketing, Sales and Service by Peter Gentsch.

Originally, this book was written in German (Künstliche Intelligenz für Sales, Marketing und Service: Mit AI und Bots zu einem Algorithmic Business) so I'm dealing with the English translation of the German original. And sometimes the English translaion seems rather strange to me and to native English speakers as well.

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/marketing-market-research...

So I'd like to ask native German speakers (and translators working from German into their mother tongue) what the meaning of "graduelles Argument" is in the following paragraph:

BIG DATA – Was neu ist
Natürlich ist die Datenmenge durch das Internet der Dinge, Mobiles und Social Media immens gestiegen – **doch dies ist eher ein graduelles Argument***. Entscheidend ist, dass durch die Möglichkeiten der IT und die Digitalisierung der Geschäftsprozesse kundennahe Kontaktpunkte sowohl zur Generierung von Daten als auch zum systematischen Aussteuern der Kommunikation gestiegen sind. Hinzu kommt die hohe Geschwindigkeit, mit der die entsprechenden Daten erfasst, prozessiert und genutzt werden. Ebenso heben neue Data-Mining-Methoden des Deep Learning und Semantic Analytics die analytische Wertschöpfung auf eine neue Qualitätsstufe.

The English translation:

Big Data—What Is New
It goes without saying that the amount of data has increased immensely thanks to the Internet of ftings, mobiles and social media—**yet this is rather a gradual argument**. The decisive factor is that thanks to the possi- bilities of IT and the digitalisation of business processes, customer-oriented points of contact for both generating data and for systematically controlling communication have increased. Added to this is the high speed at which the corresponding data is collected, processed and used. Equally, data mining methods of deep learning and semantic analytics raise the analytical value creation to a new level of quality.

I have to admit that the English phrase "gradual argument" makes little sense to me. So, is it a good and accurate translation for "graduelles Argument" in this context? And if it's not, how can "graduelles Argument" be rendered in English?

Thank you.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 yet this (line of) argument adds only very little to what has been known for a long time
4 piecemeal argument
3 graduality-based argument
3 argument with a graduated/diffuse impact
References
Graduelles Argument

Discussion

Björn Vrooman Dec 13, 2019:
[@Daniel] [I may--or may not--make one final post later; I apologize, but this isn't as easy as it seems.]

Found something, Daniel. Had a second look at it to see what more or less means in this context and if there are any other phrases that include graduell: "Aristoteles hält Freundschaft nicht für ein graduelles Phänomen, bei dem einem der eine Mensch mehr Freund ist als der andere, sondern er kategorisiert die verschiedenen Freundschaften."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freundschaft

Emphasis mine. Thus, in Aristotle's view, there are different types of friendship, not just different levels or stages. Similar paragraphs on ENS pages: "There is thus a perfectly legitimate argument in favor of the sort of 'stingingly robust vocabulary' we see in Strine's opinions. The reference to..., at worst, differs in degree but not in kind from the other examples we've seen."
https://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2...

"In nature, vocal fluency is a matter of degree, not of kind."
https://theamericanscholar.org/the-song-spectrum

Dovetails nicely with my explanation: more data--but for the same reason as 20 years ago.

Best
Mikhail Korolev (asker) Dec 12, 2019:
Many thanks to everyone for their input!
Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2019:
Hello Daniel I believe I get your point, though I think only the second example sentence Johanna posted can be rendered as more or less.

The first is about the Holocaust and (at least, that's how I read it) how you shouldn't cross the line by pretending you're interested in discussing certain events just so you can assign levels (=graduell) of horror to them.

The third seems to be about someone making an argument that has little relevance when looking at the big picture (as said below, can only take you so far).

A more literal approach would be to use, as Steffen did, "to a certain degree," which is what graduell means. The translator confused sense 1 and 2 in the Duden:

"1. dem Grad (1a) nach [bestehend]
BEISPIELE
graduelle Veränderungen
etwas unterscheidet sich nur graduell

2. gradweise, allmählich
BEISPIEL
gradueller Übergang"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/graduell

The author uses it in the first sense; I think that much we can agree on. While gradual in EN could mean "proceeding by steps or degrees," as M-W put it, please note that it says "proceeding," a process, not bestehend (a state). Not the same in DE and EN.

This section needs a complete rewrite.

Enjoy your evening!
Daniel Arnold (X) Dec 12, 2019:
Hi Björn, always good to read your thought. I had a look at Johanna's reference and if you look at it and read it, what it really says is that it is about "more or less" and similar concepts. The way I look at it that is quantitative. Also as someone else has pointed out there seems to be an element of "it doesn't take you any farther".... that again for me indicated that it's got to do with a merely quantitative argument. I understand it in the way "the argument is merely concerned with quantity (rather than quality)". I am fairly sure gradual or alike has a different meaning. Anyway, I hope you can come up with something better :-) Cheers
Björn Vrooman Dec 12, 2019:
Hello Daniel To answer your question: I'm not sure this would make things clear.

How does quantitative fit in this list? I used to do qualitative interviews in sociology, but they were nothing like what he describes. Do you mean "it's not just about the numbers"? I'm unsure whether that goes to the heart of the problem.

I think the beginning of the next sentence is important: "Entscheidend ist..." As said, listing more sources that generate more data is beside the point or of secondary
importance, as Michael noted (though I had already said as much in the English Q).

This is why I posted the additional context, so you can see the comparison between the causes and opportunities that took center stage 20 years ago and those of great import today. That's where, I think, graduell comes in, as Johanna's reference shows.

The explanation (not sure you should call that an argument) they gave back then isn't much different from the one they put forth now and it isn't very relevant.

Very much in line with her reference post, you could say this XY will only "take you so far" (=graduell).

Best wishes
Daniel Arnold (X) Dec 11, 2019:
Putting Johanna's reference (mehr oder weniger) and Steffen's suggestion (nothing news of substance) into context I can see this "graduell" having the meaning of "quantitative". If you add quantitative weight to an argument, you haven't improved on your reasoning but your statistical evidence. That's how I would understand the "graduell". Anyone agree? "A rather quantitative argument"?
Steffen Walter Dec 11, 2019:
Johanna ... ... has dug up a few interesting sources regarding "graduell" - see her reference entry. On this basis, you might also say that "this argument alone would be missing the point/largely beside the point (I am trying to make)".
Mikhail Korolev (asker) Dec 11, 2019:
Thank you very much again, Björn.
Björn Vrooman Dec 11, 2019:
@Mikhail and everyone interested in this Q I hope it's OK that I'll post part of what comes before the paragraph you quoted. You need it, though, because otherwise, you won't understand why he writes "graduell":
"BIG DATA – Was nicht neu ist
...Database-Marketing oder analytisches CRM gibt es seit über 20 Jahren. Das Phänomen großer Datenmengen ist ebenfalls nicht neu: Point of Sale, Kunden- und Kreditkarten oder Webserver produzieren schon lange große Datenmengen..."

As said in the EN-EN question, the fact "the amount of data has increased immensely thanks to the Internet of ftings, mobiles and social media" is a rehash, if you will, of an explanation that people gave 20 years ago. Only the data sources (social media, IoT etc. instead of credit card info) have changed, but the underlying structure has not: it's about data storage.

The author is much more interested in all those shiny new opportunities for mining, analyzing and filtering (that's roughly Aussteuern; control is wrong) information.

The translation is overly literal. I'm sorry you have to deal with this, but I don't think the translator has put much effort into making things understandable.

Best
Björn Vrooman Dec 11, 2019:
Hello Phil Didn't you see what I posted in the d-box of the monolingual question? I even name-dropped you there =)

I'm rather shocked, though, that you'd advocate making something up. How often do you want to do this if the book is full of these kinds of paragraphs?

Best
philgoddard Dec 11, 2019:
You didn't tell us last time that this was a translation from German! No wonder it didn't make a lot of sense.

Proposed translations

+1
37 mins
German term (edited): doch dies ist eher ein graduelles Argument
Selected

yet this (line of) argument adds only very little to what has been known for a long time

yet this (line of) argument adds only very little to what we already know
yet this (line of) argument is tantamount to stating/repeating the obvious

I essentially stick to my latest suggestion posted to the monolingual English question - see my answer there. (I am a native speaker of German.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2019-12-11 17:27:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or even a freer version: "..., but this argument is rather weak (to state/support the/my/our case)."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-12-11 18:19:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"..., but this argument alone is rather weak ..."
Note from asker:
Thank you, Steffen.
Peer comment(s):
agree Björn Vrooman : I'd drop "only," but otherwise, "adds very little" is close enough. I did wait a bit, but I still don't see an answer that would be an improvement on this one. Also, I get the distinct feeling that few have read the d-box posts.
18 hrs
Yes, I agree with dropping "only".
neutral Michael Martin, MA : Odd solution. Strikes me as an explanation rather than a translation
1 day 7 hrs
Explanation, or paraphrasing, is a perfectly legitimate translation method.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Many thanks to everyone. Thank you, Steffen."
3 hrs

piecemeal argument

Yes, contrasts with prinzipielle, deduktive Argumente. So blurred at the edges, but neither *otiose* nor redundant.
Example sentence:

Induktive Argumente sind: ..... •graduell: Die Prämissen können die Konklusion *in unterschiedlicher Stärke* stützen.

Demnach gebe es ein Kontinuum in allen ethisch relevanten Fähigkeiten, der Unterschied zwischen den Arten sei also graduell und nicht prinzipiell.

Reference:

http://tu-dresden.de/gsw/phil/iphil/theor/ressourcen/dateien/braeuer/lehre/theophil_3/WT2-SS-2006.pdf?lang=de

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_der_menschlichen_Grenzfälle

Note from asker:
Thank you, Adrian.
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

graduality-based argument

The argumentation is based on exchange and valuation of arguments interacting, then on the definition of accepted arguments (or sets of arguments) w.r.t. the proposed valuation. In this paper, using the argumentation system of [Dun95] and the valuations proposed in [CLS02a], we introduce graduality in the acceptability of arguments.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2019-12-12 02:16:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following these principles, we dene several valuation models for an abstract argumentation system. Then, we introduce \graduality" in the concept of ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2019-12-12 02:17:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Abstract argumentation (Dung 1995) is a theory of dialectic that allows us to formalise and ... Cayrol, C., Lagasquie-Schiex, M.-C.: Graduality in Argumentation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2019-12-12 02:18:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have followed this from the beginning and in light of your reposting I would suggest this solution

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2019-12-12 02:27:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

and "dene" is out of place
Note from asker:
Thank you, David.
Something went wrong...
11 hrs

argument with a graduated/diffuse impact

Don't paint this in too negative a color - it's not something that misses the point or a piecemeal or invalid argument.

I am more thinking along the lines of support argument or argument of secondary importance that only has a graduated or diffuse impact compared with the main argument.
-
Note from asker:
Thank you, Michael.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Steffen Walter : What is a "graduated" impact in this case? I guess you meant sth. like "negligible" in this case. / Thank you for adding this piece of clarity.
3 days 14 hrs
Nope. I meant the impact is measured in degrees, not absolutes. Perhaps neglible, perhaps not.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Graduelles Argument

Graduelles Argument: ein Argument, das nur zu einem gewissen Grad gilt/zieht/greift/überzeugt

Das ist ein graduelles Argument, kein prinzipielles: ab einem bestimmten Grad ist Kunst nicht mehr zulässig;
http://tinyurl.com/slsmb7y

Wir haben das Argument der Vernünftigkeit als ein graduelles Argument behandelt: Wesen haben mehr oder weniger Vernunft. Nun könnte man versuchen, das Argument umzuformulieren.
http://tinyurl.com/wx5ssvq

Allein das war nur ein graduelles Argument, mit dem der Humesche Einwand nicht im Kern getroffen war.
http://tinyurl.com/wdry733
Note from asker:
Thank you, Johanna.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Steffen Walter : Misses the point, as it were. Does not address the core of the matter. / In other words, it is partially/largely invalid.
12 mins
yes, it's only valid to a certain degree
agree Björn Vrooman : Thanks, good reference post. I posted this link in the EN-EN question: https://www.dwds.de/wb/graduell It provides some examples that seem to line up with the ones you gave. I think we can agree that the translation is far from perfect.
13 mins
Great, did not see that! Just getting back into KudoZing ..
Something went wrong...
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