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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

ramener ces formes à des notions exprimables, explicables.

English translation:

Transform these forms into notions that could be expressed and explained.

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2020-05-08 08:55:27 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
May 4, 2020 15:21
4 yrs ago
49 viewers *
French term

ramener ces formes à des notions exprimables, explicables.

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Description de l'etat d'esprit dans lequel l'artiste a peint son tableau :

"Après avoir découvert ces mondes aux formes parfaites, tels des fractales à la complexité infini, l’intérêt pour la géométrie sacrée arrive rapidement, comme une tentative de ramener ces formes à des notions exprimables, explicables"
Proposed translations (English)
5 +6 Transform these forms into notions that could be expressed and explained.
3 +5 reduce these forms to expressible ideas, which can be elucidated
3 +5 condense these forms into expressible, explainable concepts.
3 +4 Render these forms more (explicit /explicable)
4 +2 ... an attempt at translating those concepts into communicable, explainable notions.
5 bring these forms back to expressive and explicable notions.
3 +1 to infuse these forms with tangible expression
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Yvonne Gallagher

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Discussion

Tony M May 6, 2020:
@ Ph_B Yes, quite. I can see we're both on the same wavelength here!
As you say, the idea is very much more 'boils down to' or 'comes down to' — neither of which, sadly, would be in the right register here.
I think we have some good suggestions here, even though I stand by my objections to certain others, for exactly the reasons we've both been saying.
ph-b (X) May 6, 2020:
Tony, I agree that "to reduce" is perhaps not the best verb here, as I mentioned above, and it's for native speakers, not for me, to decide what the best verb would be. My earlier message was to point out that ramener... à... doesn't mean to "bring/steer back" here. How could anyone want to bring/steer these formes back to a state they never were in in the first place? On the basis of two reliable sources in French that I quoted, this is about their essence, about what they "boil down" to, as it were. See also: 3. Réduire à un état élémentaire ou plus simple ; diminuer. Ramener une fraction à sa plus simple expression. (https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9R0389). Choosing a verb that wouldn't convey this meaning would make the translation unsafe, unless you decide to go for poetic licence, which is a different matter.
Hugues Roumier (asker) May 5, 2020:
@ ormiston Hi, thanks for your help, could you please put it as an answer?
Tony M May 5, 2020:
@ Ormiston I like that suggestion! Opens up new translation possibilities...
ormiston May 5, 2020:
What about the verb 'to render' It implies a return, and works well with adjectives (eg to render something explicit, etc)
Lyle Translations May 5, 2020:
Re: how to keep "Ramener" "Bring/steer back" was not my first choice but knowing a bit more about the underlying idea now, I think it's possible. Etymologically, it's interesting to note that the word "reduce" originally derives from that meaning: "re" = back and "ducere" = to lead or steer.
Tony M May 5, 2020:
@ Ph-B Absolutely! That was the way I instinctively understood it (we use it a lot, for example, in Applied Maths) — and like yourself and Asker, I do think it is important to keep this specific sense, rather than just replace it with any old verb that seems applicable in EN. I woulld venture to suggest that rendering this idea correctly is central to the whole translation here.
But as another user has mentioned, to use 'reduce' in EN is perhaps more problematic — certainly, we have the notion of 'simplify' or 'bring down to the viewer's level'; but there is a tendency to read a negative connotation into this, with the sense of 'diminish', which I feel would be highly unwelcome here, unless we are seeking to patronise viewers of this work: "The artist thought it would be too complicated for you to understand, so they have sought here to simplify it to make it easier for you"!
Although it helps us understand the sense, we should perhaps not lose sight of the fact that the writer elected to use 'ramener' rather than 'réduire', which was after all available to them in FR.
Tony M May 5, 2020:
@ Asker I agree with you entirely about needing to keep the important sense of 'ramener.
'steer back' would not really be right here — it suggests more returning something to a state it was already in before, maybe 'putting something back on track' — think more 'réorienter'...
ph-b (X) May 5, 2020:
Hugues, I understand ramener here as: RAMENER QQCH. À… : porter à un certain point de simplification ou d'unification (Le Grand Robert de la langue française). Also: III.A.2. Faire converger (plusieurs notions) vers un point de simplification et d'unification. Synon. réduire à. ( https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ramener ). R&C translates it as "to reduce to". Don't know if this translation is possible here, but that meaning should be kept.
Hugues Roumier (asker) May 5, 2020:
how to keep "Ramener" I would like to keep the meaning of "ramener", which still litterally means "to bring back", or "to steer back"... I would like to keep that. Because the underlying idea is that you can go from forms to concepts, from concepts to forms, hence the verb "ramener", et non pas "amener". "Ramener" is used on purpose here.

Is "steer back" totally awkward?
Hugues Roumier (asker) May 5, 2020:
Description/purport of paintings Je n'ai pas plus de contexte moi même, n'ayant pas vu les peintures.
En ce qui concerne mon "problème", je cherche juste une formulation intéressante, qui "sonne EN", et qui rende la traduction un peu créative.
Wolf Draeger May 4, 2020:
Context @Asker, could you please let us know what you're translating, what text this line is from and what your problem is?

Proposed translations

+6
3 mins
Selected

Transform these forms into notions that could be expressed and explained.

As easy as it sounds
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Maybe not quite... To start with 'transform ... forms' is inelegant, as well as being arguably inaccurate; and then the use of the conditional 'could' seems a curious way to handle FR '-able'. But this is the best option on the table so far!
19 mins
Yes, we can use "can". Thank you
agree Philippa Smith : I'd use "can be"...
21 mins
Yes, we can use "can". Thank you
agree Said Elbelghiti : That seems a fair translation for it
22 mins
Thank you
agree Carol Gullidge : ..."can" :)
1 hr
yes thank you
agree EirTranslations
3 hrs
thank you
agree Daryo : or "concepts"
4 hrs
Thank you
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+5
13 mins

reduce these forms to expressible ideas, which can be elucidated

How I interpret it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2020-05-04 15:39:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/later-...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I would take issue with 'reduce' to convey 'ramener', which seems rather 'réducteur', and also with turning it into an inelegant subordinate clause using 'which'. I can't say I'm very comfortable with 'expressible' either. Yes, I do have.
10 mins
Do you have any experience translating art texts, like I do (and a lot of it)? And I can't? https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/expressible
neutral Carol Gullidge : Translation loss in that it doesn't flow as nicely as the ST, nor quite as accurate as it could be. A mon avis, Tony a raison !//?!
1 hr
No he doesn't.
agree SafeTex : I think "reduce" is actually the best verb.
2 hrs
Thanks, SafeTex.
agree Lyle Translations : I agree broadly, you could use an adjective like 'explicable' or 'explainable' if you wanted to avoid the 'which can...' structure.
2 hrs
Thanks, and point well taken.
agree Nicole Acher : Well phrased, in my opinion.
2 hrs
Thanks, Nicole, and your comment definitely well taken!
agree Joshua Parker : I quite like this. I think "reduce" is good here (perhaps your best bet for the verb). I'm not too keen on splitting "exprimables" and "explicables" (I'd try to keep them together either as adjectives or within one sub. clause), but I think it works OK.
3 hrs
neutral Daryo : re "specialising in art": FYI fractals are pure maths - so what's your experience with maths? Or with logic, as you rearranged the logical links in the ST in a rather illogical way // The "artistic" aspect of fractals is just "collateral benefit".
4 hrs
Please read what I entered as the translation. "Fractals" clearly does not appear as part of it.It's illogical for you to carry on in a bombastic way about something that I didn't even mention as part of my translation of the phrase.
agree ph-b (X) : Not for me to discuss your choice of words, but "reduce... to..." is the right idea. See discussion.
14 hrs
Thank you, ph-b.
Something went wrong...
+1
48 mins

to infuse these forms with tangible expression

obviously, not "literal"...but when it comes to the literary, it can't be literal. I waver on the "tangible expression"...I'm looking for something less clumsy than "notions that can be explained" (not very literary). Maybe just "Infuse these forms with the expressible" or "actual expression" "concrete expression". What I feel certain about is the verb "INFUSE". I think that captures the essential of what the artist is doing...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Like the style! But a little worried about getting away from the original meaning, which I think is almost the reverse of 'infuse' — to me, it is more about getting some highly abstract notion down in a more concrete form.
20 mins
instill?
neutral Carol Gullidge : agree with Tony; I also like the style, but feel it is a tiny bit over translated (I think!)
57 mins
how about...with a little change in syntax..."give concrete expression to these forms"
agree Jennifer White : actually I agree with this rendition. This what it means. Some of these other answers are too wordy and clumsy IMO.
2 hrs
thank you Jennifer
neutral Daryo : fractals are already "tangible" - especially in the form in which they are usually presented - in graphic form (as opposed to the mathematical formulas used to generate fractals)
1 day 8 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
2 hrs

condense these forms into expressible, explainable concepts.

Barbara's suggestion of 'reduce' would not be incorrect in my opinion, but 'condense' could be an alternative if 'reduce' sounds too pejorative.
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : "condense" maybe, but " into expressible, explainable concepts" is spot on.
2 hrs
Thank you!
agree ph-b (X) : Not for me to discuss your choice of words, but "condense... into..." is the right idea. See discussion.
12 hrs
Thanks for your input.
agree Tony M
14 hrs
Thanks Tony.
agree Saro Nova : I like "concepts" a lot here. Maybe "return", or "bring back to" instead of "condense"
14 hrs
Thanks, yes I think 'bring back to' would be fine, or 'restore' could be another option.
agree Carol Gullidge
14 hrs
Thank you, Carol.
Something went wrong...
+4
19 hrs

Render these forms more (explicit /explicable)

Hope this helps!
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Certainly agree with the verb, if some misgivings about the rest
29 mins
agree Jennifer White : Like this one too.
1 hr
agree Jane F
9 hrs
agree SafeTex : i've already given an agree but this is even better
14 hrs
Thank you!
Something went wrong...
17 hrs

bring these forms back to expressive and explicable notions.

Just as an option for syntax. You will be likely translating the first part of that subjugate as: "like an attempt to..." Perhaps it would get too wordy otherwise. Also, the idea of bringing them "back" is I think important to the meaning here.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2020-05-05 15:20:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

RETURN* instead of bring... back
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I think the notion of 'returning /bringing back to' is taking this the wrong way, for the reasons stated by Ph_B in the discussion — this is not about taking them back to some state they were in before, it's a more subtle musage of the verb in FR.
22 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
3 hrs

... an attempt at translating those concepts into communicable, explainable notions.

there are quite a few variables we could use for the two key modifiers we want, which are to be able to "express" (iterate, communicate, verbalize) and to "explain".

For "ramener" - I chose "translate" so as not to be repetitious, but you could use "express", and numerous synonyms of that word, here, too.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2020-05-06 19:29:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


How about ...
"...breaking down those concepts into communicable, explainable notions." ?
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Yes, I think 'translate' works well here.
12 hrs
thanks Tony -
agree Saro Nova : I like this also, just that I feel the idea of "ramener", as in to "return to" is missing
13 hrs
you're right, I like Hugues' entry listing the Robert's definition of "ramener", as sort of like "bringing it back down to earth", which seems appropriate for this context.
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