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Valeur p unilatérale
Comptables d’ordre.
Mar 2, 2021 18:12
3 yrs ago
43 viewers *
French term

pour le salaire de Monsieur le Conservateur

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Succession
Bonjour à tous !
Je traduis un document de succession et j'ai croisé la phrase suivante :

"Cette servitude est consentie sans aucune stipulation d’indemnité, et évaluée ****pour le salaire de Monsieur le Conservateur au deuxième bureau des hypothèques**** à la somme de mille francs"

Cette phrase apparaît deux fois dans le document, sinon, il n'y a aucune mention de Monsieur le Conservateur...

Je ne comprend pas ce que le salaire du conservateur vient faire dans l'histoire. Est-ce que quelqu'un peut m'aider à comprendre ?
Merci d'avance de votre aide !
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 for the purposes of the land registry fee
3 for the Land Charges Registrar's /ad valorem / fee

Discussion

Jeffrey Henson (asker) Mar 6, 2021:
Thanks ! Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread. I found the exchanges very enlightening and helpful!
AllegroTrans Mar 5, 2021:
At the end of the day... there are no longer any Messieurs les Conservateurs des hypothèques - they have all been replaced by a national Land Registration Service which can be searched online
Daryo Mar 4, 2021:
Yes and I can't see what makes you add "!!!"?

Same as there is a "nuance" between "the Ministry" (the institution) and "the Minister" (a person). Which of the two is used in official documents in which country reflects a different underlying logic - the explanation is far too long, but the difference is not insignificant.

To the point that in some negotiations it can lead to debates about as heated as arguments about whether the negotiating table will be a round one or a square one (they DO happen).

BTW as far as I can remember, if you need to send a letter to the Land Registry, it will be addressed to "the Registrar" - check for yourself before being "shocked" at the idea of using "registrar" instead of "registry".

Autres chats à fouetter ...
Conor McAuley Mar 4, 2021:
A literal translation here...
...would just sound silly.
AllegroTrans Mar 4, 2021:
Well We can either "go literal" and say for "for the salary of Mr. Keeper of the Mortgages" or we can be pragmatic and call this what it is - a Land Registry fee. There is a school of thought which says that in a legal translation you have to take the former course, but in a case like this I wouldn't do so.
SafeTex Mar 4, 2021:
@Daryo I saw your remark to PhiGoddard:

neutral : And "Monsieur le Conservateur" is the land registrar - same distinction registry / registrar exist in UK, BTW

If you follow this to its logical conclusion, the answer in English would be... Mr. Land Registrar !!!
AllegroTrans Mar 3, 2021:
Land Charges Registry The reason why this is misleading is that (in England & Wales) it is a Registry ONLY used to record second and subsequent mortgages on unregistered land (i.e. land not yet recorded in the Land Registry) and miscellaneous charges and entries such as bankruptcies. There is no equivalent in France which firstly had "Mortgage Registries" operating on a local basis, but which now has a modern unified Land Registry.
Daryo Mar 3, 2021:
@ AllegroTrans It's about as much "strange" as "le fait du prince" STILL being used today - in the legal jargon of "la Cinquième République"!

Five "Republic" later, lawyers must have finally noticed that there is no longer any "Prince" in France, but they still happily keep using that term today; so what's so surprising about "le salaire de Monsieur le Conservateur"?
AllegroTrans Mar 3, 2021:
"Salaire" VERY strange way of expressing a fee!! I suppose this could be an ancient formula dating back to the days when the "Keeper" of mortgages did indeed pocket all the fees he received.
Cyril Tollari Mar 2, 2021:
Salaire https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservateur_des_hypothèques#L...
Pour rémunérer les fonctions civiles dont il assumait la responsabilité, le conservateur était autorisé par la loi46 à percevoir des « salaires » versés par les utilisateurs du service de la publicité foncière.
philgoddard Mar 2, 2021:
Exactly, though it's an easement rather than a charge - perhaps a right of way.
Marco Solinas Mar 2, 2021:
To Phil and Asker I am guessing that the compensation/remuneration/fee of the "Conservateur" is based on the value of the charges registered and that in this case this value is estimated at 1,000 Francs
philgoddard Mar 2, 2021:
Thanks for pointing that out, Marco I didn't realise we'd had "Monsieur le Conservateur" before, but we still need to translate "salaire".
Marco Solinas Mar 2, 2021:
To Asker Have you seen this: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/real-estate/492... and this: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais-anglais/conse... and this: https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?l...

Proposed translations

+4
16 mins
Selected

for the purposes of the land registry fee

Salaire doesn't always mean salary:

salaire
nm
1 rémunération d'un travail
2 récompense méritée pour une action
http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-definition/salaire

And "Monsieur le Conservateur" is the land register (definition 4 here):
http://en.pons.com/us/translate/french-english/conservateur

There are three examples of phrases similar to yours here:
http://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/salaire du...

I think you'd be justified in leaving out "deuxième".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2021-03-02 18:33:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We've had "salaire" in this context before, though I'm not sure I agree with "mortgage guy":-)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/7470...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2021-03-02 18:34:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And I put "land register" because that's where mortgages are registered in my native UK.
Peer comment(s):
agree Kathleen Johnson
3 mins
agree AllegroTrans : I would capitalise Land Registry, as in Phil Goddard; note that there is now a unified Land Registration Service in France that has replaced the Bureaux des hypothèques
4 hrs
I don't agree with capitalising words just because they seem important. My name has initial caps because it's a proper noun. But thanks for agreeing!
neutral Adrian MM. : You again haven't answered the question: Je ne comprend pas ce que le salaire du conservateur vient faire dans l'histoire.
14 hrs
I've given a full explanation and references.
neutral Daryo : And "Monsieur le Conservateur" is the land registrar - same distinction registry / registrar exist in UK, BTW
19 hrs
It doesn't go into one individual's pocket.
agree SafeTex : Neat solution and good answer to Daryo above
1 day 10 hrs
Thanks! I get tired of being constantly lectured by someone whose first language is not English. I wouldn't presume to criticize his Serbian.
agree Suzie Withers
2 days 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Phil, I really appreciate your help and your clear explanations !"
1 hr

for the Land Charges Registrar's /ad valorem / fee

Conservateur des hypothèques: Chief Registrar of the Mortgage Registry - of the *Land Charges* Registry: Mortgage Registrar, Land Registrar: Bridge.

Here the context is one of succession and must be alluding to a 'devise of land' hit by the, pace Allegro, 'servitude' that might need to be re-registered.

Je ne comprend pas ce que le salaire du conservateur vient faire dans l'histoire. > servitude ranks here as a a 'land charge' - US query: land lien and would attract an ad valorem, usually nominal Registrar's fee for registration thereof.

NB the UK conveyancing searches I used to do in order of priority 1. a bankruptcy search 2. a local land charges search of the Council for public rights of way and wayleaves - I will leave the easements vs. servitudes narrative to Allegro but in my 'day' pre-E-conveyancing Protocol 3. The charges register of a paper but now electronic Charge Certificate would refer to mortgages and private rights of way over the land that, in ENG law, includes buildings.
Example sentence:

Pour la perception du salaire de Monsieur le Conservateur des Hypothèques, la servitude est évaluée à 150 Euros.

The local land charges search will reveal whether a property is subject to a charge if that charge has been registered.

Reference:

http://iate.europa.eu/search/standard/result/1614713595411/1

http://www.info-encheres.com/upload/1YUqSERVITUDES.pdf

Note from asker:
Thanks very much for your help Adrian, I really appreciate it !
Peer comment(s):
disagree AllegroTrans : Far too anglo-centric; "Land Charges Registry" doesn't exist in France, there is now a unified (and finally, modernised) Land Registration Service that has replaced the Bureaux des hypothèques (post FHS Bridge, with whom I disagree anyway on this)
3 hrs
Land Charges are still a useful way of answering the asker's question. https://nestenn.com/lexique-immobilier/bureau-des-hypotheque...
neutral philgoddard : For once, I don't think you're being anglocentric - "land charges registrar" works anywhere. But I'm not agreeing, because your answer is almost identical to mine :-)
4 hrs
I answered the asker's question. You didn't and never dealt with the land charges point akin to ad valorem Stamp Duty: Je ne comprend pas ce que le salaire du conservateur vient faire dans l'histoire..
agree Daryo : possibly leaving the "ad valorem" part implied // if the original mentions a person instead of an institution, I would leave it like that. Doesn't change much, but reflects better the ST.
17 hrs
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