Oct 12, 2021 09:41
2 yrs ago
29 viewers *
English term
phoenixing
English to French
Bus/Financial
Law (general)
The document is a business/legal document talking about illegal phoenixing. I have found a clear explanation in English - the creation of a new company and transfer of assets to be able to liquidate the old company with no assets. I can't find any (concise) translation of this same idea in French. I'm thinking of keeping the English term and giving a brief explanation in French. All suggestions gratefully received!
Proposed translations
(French)
Change log
Oct 12, 2021 09:43: fee verte changed "Field (write-in)" from "Divorce ruling" to " "
Proposed translations
-1
1 hr
JACQUES LHOMME
France
France
Native in French
France
Expertise in several areas
Native in: French 
Works in: German to French, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
33
Selected
Création d'une nouvelle société pour organiser l'insolvabilite de l'ancienne
Une suggestion. Cordialement
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks everyone for very helpful discussion and references. "
3 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
35
constitution d'entreprise - en forme- phénix parasitaire
> souvent par voie de banqueroute frauduleuse. Refer to my near-namesake of Adrien E. in the Discussion Entry for a non-corporate side to insolvabilité frauduleuse.
... 'to be able to liquidate the old company with no assets.' - primarily with no debts or liabilities, such as those owed to translators and interpreters by rogue T+I agencies, including certain notorious ones previously engaged in such sharp practice and expelled from ProZ.
A Phoenix could be 'constitution', so setting-up of a new co. or reconstitution of a dissolved one, as in Canada.
Also consider the idea of 'le parasitisme' and agissements parasitaire : piracy or the tort of 'passing-off' in ENG Common law.
... 'to be able to liquidate the old company with no assets.' - primarily with no debts or liabilities, such as those owed to translators and interpreters by rogue T+I agencies, including certain notorious ones previously engaged in such sharp practice and expelled from ProZ.
A Phoenix could be 'constitution', so setting-up of a new co. or reconstitution of a dissolved one, as in Canada.
Also consider the idea of 'le parasitisme' and agissements parasitaire : piracy or the tort of 'passing-off' in ENG Common law.
Example sentence:
UK Phoenix Company: In summary Sections 216 and 217 of The Insolvency Act 1986 prescribe that a director can be imprisoned, fined and made personally liable for debts if he breaches those Sections by wrongly reusing a prohibited name.
Can.: Qu'est-ce qu'une reconstitution? Une reconstitution permet à une société dissoute en vertu de la LCSA de recouvrer la situation juridique qu'elle avait précédemment comme si elle n'avait jamais été dissoute.
Reference:
http://asic.gov.au/for-business/small-business/closing-a-small-business/illegal-phoenix-activity/
http://www.linguee.fr/anglais-francais/traduction/phoenix+company.html
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Interesting suggestion but I cannot find a single example of "phénix parasitaire", it does not seem to be a French term at all // question is, would a French-spkg lawyer understand your term? Surely the crux of the matter
3 hrs
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OK, but it's the entreprise rather than the Phoenix that is 'parasitic' https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?l...
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| neutral |
Daryo
: mostly agree but adding "parasitaire" is surplus to requirement.
7 hrs
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I came close to posting just 'parasitisme' that resembles 'phoenixing' at the edges https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?l...
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1 day 32 mins
organisation frauduleuse...
Lire : organisation frauduleuse de l'insolvabilité d'une personne morale en vue d'en créer une nouvelle (phoenixing)
Le fait de ne pouvoir saisir une réponse dans son intégralité résume bien le problème : vous n'allez pas faire l'économie d'une périphrase, qu'il faudra compléter avec le terme anglais. Tant pis pour la concision.
L'art. 314-7 du Code pénal va vous aider en partie pour la terminologie, même si le contexte n'est pas celui d'un divorce, mais d'une décision de justice :
« ...d'organiser ou d'aggraver son insolvabilité soit en augmentant le passif ou en diminuant l'actif de son patrimoine..., soit en dissimulant certains de ses biens... Commet le même délit le dirigeant de droit ou de fait d'une personne morale qui organise ou aggrave l'insolvabilité de celle-ci dans les conditions définies à l'alinéa précédent... »
(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
Reste à traiter le phénix, si je puis dire. Je suggère :
« organisation frauduleuse de l'insolvabilité d'une personne morale en vue d'en créer une nouvelle (phoenixing) »
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Note added at 1 jour 19 heures (2021-10-14 05:34:55 GMT)
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À propos d'organisation frauduleuse de l'insolvabilité,
« Aujourd’hui, l’organisation frauduleuse de l’insolvabilité est un délit prévu à l’article 314-7 du Code pénal... »
https://www.affiches.fr/infos/droit-et-chiffre/lorganisation...
« Section 3 : De l'organisation frauduleuse de l'insolvabilité (Articles 314-7 à 314-9) »
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/id/LEGISCTA000006165336...
« La caractérisation du délit d’organisation frauduleuse d’insolvabilité nécessite que les actes poursuivis aient pour objet ou effet d’organiser ou d’aggraver l’insolvabilité de leur auteur. »
https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/flash/precisions-sur-element...
Et plus : https://www.google.com/search?q=organisation frauduleuse ins...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
François Tardif
6 hrs
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| disagree |
Daryo
: "frauduleuse" is too vague - there are tens of other fraudulent ways of terminating a company that are NOT "phoenixing"
15 hrs
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11 hrs
English term (edited):
phoenixing (of companies)
création / constitution de / recours à des "sociétés-phoenix" / "sociétés réincarnées"
anyone with a basic knowledge of how company law works will get the gist without needing much additional explanations.
as quite a number of real companies have "Phoenix" in their names, it's probably better to avoid any possible confusion and use "sociétés réincarnées" (or possibly "sociétés de type 'phoenix'"?)
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Note added at 2 days 2 hrs (2021-10-14 11:53:21 GMT)
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Phénix
Le phénix, parfois écrit phœnix (du grec ancien φοῖνιξ / phoînix, au sens probable de « rouge sang »), est un oiseau légendaire, doué d'une grande longévité et caractérisé par son pouvoir de renaître après s'être consumé dans les flammes. Il symbolise ainsi les cycles de mort et de résurrection. Son surnom moderne est l'oiseau de feu.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phénix
The phoenix is an immortal bird associated with Greek mythology (with analogs in many cultures) that cyclically regenerates or is otherwise born again. Associated with the sun, a phoenix obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor. Some legends say it dies in a show of flames and combustion, others that it simply dies and decomposes before being born again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)
a clear explanation in English of ""phoenixing" as a business practice: the creation of a new company and transfer of assets to be able to liquidate the old company with no assets
Phénix par Friedrich Justin Bertuch, 1790-1830.
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Note added at 4 days (2021-10-16 17:46:15 GMT)
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A point of method, regarding (mis)interpreting / missing the key point in otherwise relevant references:
The difference between legal and illegal phoenix activity
Are businesses legitimately restructuring to deal with the financial fallout of COVID-19 or just avoiding paying their debts? ASIC’s senior executive leader for small business engagement and compliance Diana Steicke explores.
...
https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/membership/company-dire...
"The difference between legal and illegal phoenix activity" => not all "phoenix activity" is illegal in itself - WHY otherwise feel the need to specify "legal and illegal"???
"Are businesses legitimately restructuring ..." = "restructuring" being the easy to figure out synonym for "phoenix activity", and again as "restructuring" could also be done for nefarious purposes, "legitimately" was added.
As far as I can see "phoenix activity" [either legal or illegal] is just a catchy synonym for "restructuring" or for ...
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Note added at 5 days (2021-10-17 13:18:45 GMT)
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Alternatively, you could just forget about the mythological phoenix bird altogether, and put it plainly:
"illegal phoenixing" [<I>the whole of, not just "phoenixing"]:
restructuration frauduleuse / réincarnation frauduleuse (de société)
as quite a number of real companies have "Phoenix" in their names, it's probably better to avoid any possible confusion and use "sociétés réincarnées" (or possibly "sociétés de type 'phoenix'"?)
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Note added at 2 days 2 hrs (2021-10-14 11:53:21 GMT)
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Phénix
Le phénix, parfois écrit phœnix (du grec ancien φοῖνιξ / phoînix, au sens probable de « rouge sang »), est un oiseau légendaire, doué d'une grande longévité et caractérisé par son pouvoir de renaître après s'être consumé dans les flammes. Il symbolise ainsi les cycles de mort et de résurrection. Son surnom moderne est l'oiseau de feu.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phénix
The phoenix is an immortal bird associated with Greek mythology (with analogs in many cultures) that cyclically regenerates or is otherwise born again. Associated with the sun, a phoenix obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor. Some legends say it dies in a show of flames and combustion, others that it simply dies and decomposes before being born again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)
a clear explanation in English of ""phoenixing" as a business practice: the creation of a new company and transfer of assets to be able to liquidate the old company with no assets
Phénix par Friedrich Justin Bertuch, 1790-1830.
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Note added at 4 days (2021-10-16 17:46:15 GMT)
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A point of method, regarding (mis)interpreting / missing the key point in otherwise relevant references:
The difference between legal and illegal phoenix activity
Are businesses legitimately restructuring to deal with the financial fallout of COVID-19 or just avoiding paying their debts? ASIC’s senior executive leader for small business engagement and compliance Diana Steicke explores.
...
https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/membership/company-dire...
"The difference between legal and illegal phoenix activity" => not all "phoenix activity" is illegal in itself - WHY otherwise feel the need to specify "legal and illegal"???
"Are businesses legitimately restructuring ..." = "restructuring" being the easy to figure out synonym for "phoenix activity", and again as "restructuring" could also be done for nefarious purposes, "legitimately" was added.
As far as I can see "phoenix activity" [either legal or illegal] is just a catchy synonym for "restructuring" or for ...
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Note added at 5 days (2021-10-17 13:18:45 GMT)
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Alternatively, you could just forget about the mythological phoenix bird altogether, and put it plainly:
"illegal phoenixing" [<I>the whole of, not just "phoenixing"]:
restructuration frauduleuse / réincarnation frauduleuse (de société)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: I would like to see your evidence that this term means anything to a Fr-spkg. lawyer // "should be" proves nothing and the fact is there is a legit. company in France by the name of "Société Phénix" https://www.societe.com/societe/phenix-528789084.html
2 hrs
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Assuming that the intended reader of the translation is as familiar as the writer with the legend of the phoenix bird, yes, it should be self-explanatory enough. // legit. company in France ...? I already noticed that, if you have read my answer.
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Discussion
“Odd though it sounds, the Corporations Act 2001 (Cth) does not define illegal phoenix activity. Instead, if proved, a director will likely be found to have breached their duties, or possibly engaged in misleading and deceptive conduct or similar fraudulent misconduct. Sometimes, other people are involved who facilitate directors to engage in illegal phoenix activity and may be equally liable as the director.”
The Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC) regulates registered companies, financial markets, and providers of financial services and credit services.
https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/membership/company-dire...
“The key difference between a legitimate business rescue and illegal phoenix activity is the director’s intentions. It becomes a problem if it is done to remove assets or other financial obligations from the reach of creditors when winding up — and when directors benefit from it. If a new company is getting the assets for free or at “mate’s rates”, for instance, that constitutes illegal phoenix activity.”
Taken from the Australian Institute of Company Directors (AICD)
[mettre des actifs ou d'autres obligations financières hors de portée des créanciers lors d'une liquidation dans le but d’avantager les administrateurs.]
is NOT "phoenixing" - it's garden variety "hiding of assets", and the main "beneficiaries" are not necessarily the directors of the company.
"phoenixing" implies that the company will be "reborn from its ashes" - that apart from being a new legal person, the new company will just "carry business as usual" of the old company (minus annoying creditors ...)
Ex. : …«phoenixing» [mettre des actifs ou d'autres obligations financières hors de portée des créanciers lors d'une liquidation dans le but d’avantager les administrateurs.]
Pratique consistant notamment à rendre une entreprise insolvable afin de se soustraire aux dettes et de renaître sous une nouvelle entité.
Le concept de phénix est bien trouvé pour ce genre de pratique...