Feb 18, 2022 09:59
2 yrs ago
34 viewers *
French term

Guillocheur - Sellier

French to English Other Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting What is Guillocheur and Sellier in English please?
I am looking for the english translation of these jobs linked to the watchmaking art industry.

Guillocheur - Sellier

Discussion

Séverine Watson Feb 18, 2022:
@Asker Your 'guillochier' term is very niche. You'll have to decide what works best in your context.
Yvonne Gallagher Feb 18, 2022:
@ Asker Only 1 term at a time as per rules

Proposed translations

+1
23 mins
Selected

Engraver - Leatherworker

I'm confindent that the guillocheur is the engraver who deals with all the intricate designs on the dial and links.

FR: https://www.institut-metiersdart.org/metiers-art/fiches-meti...

EN: https://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/watches-and-culture/encyc...

As for your sellier however, I'm less confident. Leatherworker would be a nice catch-all, but you may find something more specific here: https://mazeleather.com/what-is-a-leatherworker-called/

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Note added at 37 mins (2022-02-18 10:37:26 GMT)
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*confident not confindent!
Peer comment(s):

agree writeaway
43 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
6 hrs

Engine Turner - Leatherworker

Perhaps the French terms could also be familiar to English-speaking horological professionals, might be kept alongside, respectively?

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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-02-18 16:47:30 GMT)
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https://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/watches-and-culture/train...

An engine turner decorates the surface of a watch dial, bridge or mainplate with a repetitive pattern of regular geometric motifs, using either a hand tool or a rose engine. Examples of engine-turned (or guilloché) patterns are sunray, Côtes de Genève and snailing.

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Note added at 6 hrs (2022-02-18 16:49:57 GMT)
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https://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/watches-and-culture/encyc...

ENGINE-TURNING (GUILLOCHÉ)

A style of hand or machine engraving with intersecting wavy or straight lines. When the piece is moved horizontally or vertically against the tool, the finished effect is guilloché, compared with flinqué or flinking which follows a radial movement.
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11 hrs

Guillocheur

I would use a gloss.
For example, the guillocheur, or specialist engraver, ...

I have translated a lot of content for high-end watch companies and they always use the French term Guilloché for the special engraving technique used on watch dials.

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44 mins

damaskeener - leatherworker

Here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilloché#In_today’s_terminolo...
it is said that in watchmaking the term for what in English is called 'GUILLOCHÉ WORK' is 'DAMASKEENING', the article on which - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damaskeening - says
"In horology, DAMASKEENING IS DECORATIVE PATTERNING ON A WATCH MOVEMENT. The term damaskeening is used in America, while in Europe the terms used are Fausses Côtes, Côtes de Genève or Geneva Stripes. Such patterns are made from very fine scratches made by rose engine lathe using small disks, polishing wheels or ivory laps. These patterns look similar to the results of a spirograph or Guilloché engraving."

Note the comment about US vs Europe. "Geneva stripes are also known as “Côtes de Genève” or even “Geneva waves”, and are perhaps among the best known of all the movement decorations. You’ll find them on various movement plates as well as on rotors"
https://www.fratellowatches.com/how-watches-work-what-are-ge...

For European/British term for the profession of creating Geneva stripes, I don't know... Hence medium confidence only.

The 13th census of the USA lists "DAMASKEENER, watch factory" as a profession:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=Z2nSnObtJ9wC&pg=PA190&lpg=P...

However, I cannot swear that that is not the equivalent of 'démasquineur', which is different:
"Le damasquinage (de damaschino, mot italien dérivé de Damas) est une technique de décoration, qui consiste à ENCHÂSSER UN FIL DE CUIVRE, D'OR OU D'ARGENT, sur une surface métallique, généralement en fer ou en acier, et plus anciennement en bronze, afin de créer différents motifs décoratifs et ornementaux. Le résultat de cette incrustation est appelé une damasquinure et l'artisan réalisant ces incrustations est un damasquineur."

A 'sellier' works with leather, but does rather finer work in watchmaking than a saddler!

"I'm searching for a top lEATHERWORKER to complete contract work (leather bands) FOR A WATCHMAKER in Connecticut making small numbers of handmade wristwatches"
"The WATCH IS MOUNTED ON A LEATHER CUFF STRAP handmade by Shrewsbury-based LEATHERWORKER Christopher Clarke"

"Visit any HIGH-END WATCH brand’s facilities and you will discover how the Swiss love to be environmentally friendly: [...] but ask them about the origin of the alligator that ended up as one of their straps, and not only do they not always know, but their heads are often buried in the sand [...] A skin may originate in Indonesia, for example, go to Singapore for a first tanning process, then a second tanning in Italy, before being finished in France and delivered to a LEATHERWORKER in Switzerland, making traceability an urgent priority."

I close with a pretty example of partially namelled damaskeening.






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Note added at 13 hrs (2022-02-18 23:51:51 GMT)
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Apparently it's a rare occupation, except in the Swiss watch industry, so it's hardly surprising the word 'damaskeener' is rare these days.

The collector here seems to know his stuff and is not afraid to use the word:
"Some collectors who are fans of the damaskeener's art might prefer the full-plate watches"
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/3-4-plate-vs-full-plate.70320/
Peer comment(s):

neutral Séverine Watson : Damaskeener doesn't have many hits. You're right that it's a very specific thing here but I'm not sure this works.
34 mins
I have a couple of Patek Philippe magazines and they do indeed refer to 'engravers'... But then the French is 'graveur'.
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