Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2021:

"If the source text does not make sense"

But the source text does make sense.
We know exactly what is meant here.

Jack den Haan Sep 2, 2021:

@Barend If the source text does not make sense, a translator should not try make sense of it. That woud involve a personal interpretative view of the source text concerned, which, I repeat, is not what the translator of a patent application should do. There's not much sense in further discussion I believe, so I will leave it at this -- and up to Michael to decide how to handle this terminological issue.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2021:

It is impossible to translate the source text precisely, without making sense of what the source text says.

Actually, the more sense you can make of it, the preciser you can be.

Jack den Haan Sep 2, 2021:

Oops... My reference remark about 'perimitraal' is not correct. That is not the same as 'perimetraal'. Nevertheless, I think it is quite justifiable to use such an adjectival form of the term 'perimeter' (which is not only an English term but also correct Dutch, see GVD).

Jack den Haan Sep 2, 2021:

@Barend It is absolutely NOT the task of the translator of a patent application "to make sense of what the src text says". Unlike most other areas of translation, it is the task of such a translator to translate the source text precisely, even if the content of a passage or the meaning of a term is utter nonsense. In principle, if one follows the idea of 'reverse translation' as in software reverse engineering (i.e. attempting to reconstruct a source program by working backwards as it were from the machine code), you should ideally arrive back at the original source term. Try doing that with a translation like 'buitenomtrek'. That would lead to something like outer or outside circumference, or even external circumference -- which is undoubtedly what is meant but not up to us as translators to determine. I was trained as a patent translator by one of the biggest, if not the biggest, patent applicants in the NL, by the way, and have translated and/or reviewed hundreds of patent applications in the past. IMHO, I think I know what I'm talking about ;-)

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

One could argue that 'buitenomtrek' is somewhat tautological as well, as opposed to just 'omtrek', so this would satisfy your need for being tautological, while at the same time using perfectly acceptable Dutch.

perimetral (buiten) circumference (omtrek) --> buitenomtrek

By the way, you already understood the problem before you asked the question, as usually ;-) I mean:

"omtreksomtrek"? "perimeter omtrek"? of gewoon "omtrek"?

I guess my advice would be:

Doe maar gewoon dan doe je al gek genoeg. :-)

Michael Beijer (asker) Sep 1, 2021:

I was exaggerating to make a point. In this case it isn't "nonsense", merely tautological. And if the author of the patent application uses a tautology, I can and should too. Unless, of course, the phrase turns out to have a special meaning, in which case it is my job to figure it out, and render that in my target language.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

"if the source is nonsense"

But what if it isn't?

Of course, you are familiar with what they call 'false friends', which is a simple example of incorrect 'literal' translations.

Of course, incorrect 'literal' translations can also be made when translating patents.
I would expect you would make many if you followed this interpretation of 'literal' translation, depending on the length of the text.
It is the task of the translator to make sense of what the src text says.

Michael Beijer (asker) Sep 1, 2021:

hmm Barend, when translating patents, if the source is nonsense, the target must also be nonsense. It's not up to me to decide to change it.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

If you wanted to follow the src text as closely as possible you would need to follow what it says as closely as possible in Dutch that comes as closely as possible to what it says.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

Fully disagree.

"perimetrale omtrek" = nonsense

If we look at the reference provided, 'buitenomtrek' is the way to go.

Michael Beijer (asker) Sep 1, 2021:

thanks everyone! I think I will use Jack's suggestion, "perimetrale omtrek", since it's a patent application, and I need to follow the src text as closely as possible, even if it sounds weird or the word is rarely used (online).

Another option I was toying with was "buitenrandomtrek".

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

'omtrek van de perimeter' does not really make sense.

What this says in fact, is: omtrek van de omtrek/buitengrenzen/e.d.

A perimeter is either a path that encompasses/surrounds/outlines a shape (in two dimensions) or its length (one-dimensional). The perimeter of a circle or an ellipse is called its circumference.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

Heard this word 'perimeter' on CNN for one to two weeks:

These troops and innocent civilians at the airport face the risk of attack from ISIS-K from a distance, even though we’re moving back the perimeter significantly.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

Same reference:

Work with fingers for the mutual cohesion of the borders of the "bottom" and "cover", along their perimetral circumference.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2021:

Hardly any G-hits for 'perimetral circumference'. Sounds like a pleonasm, doesn't it?

The aluminium tray, lined with a layer of meat called "bottom", is filled up with the stuffing, over which the littler disk called "lid" is put, then the work proceeds with fingers in such a way to obtain the perfect joint of the two disks, along their perimetral circumference.

https://www.mysciencework.com/patent/download/press-mincemea...

Ron Willems Sep 1, 2021:

buitenomtrek Ja precies, dat... :-)

Of misschien toch de binnenomtrek van de buitenste schijf, die ietsje groter is dan de buitenomtrek van de binnenste schijf, waardoor een spleet ontstaat - mits de binnenste schijf zich binnenin de opening van de buitenste bevindt.

Al zou je dan verwachten dat de diameter/straal van die schijven van belang is en niet de omtrek...

Kitty Brussaard Sep 1, 2021:

buitenomtrek? This is not my field but I was thinking more along the lines of "buitenomtrek", i.e. "buitenomtrek van de twee schijven" as opposed to their "binnenomtrek", provided there's such a thing :-).

Michael Beijer (asker) Sep 1, 2021:

~ ik heb het vooralsnog vertaald als "omtrek van de perimeter"