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fils de bourde de drain

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Baïne

English translation:

baïne

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2021-01-09 08:54:52 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Jan 5, 2021 08:52
3 yrs ago
57 viewers *
French term

Baïne

French to English Other Geography Coasts
Hello all,

I am currently translating a fishing brocure (French to English), which uses the term "baïne" frequently. An example of this is:

Comme pour les baïnes, les bars aiment les zones où le courant est changeant, voir nul.

The technical translation based off wikipedia seems to be the same term, "baïne" in English. As the aim of this brochure is to inform a reader about fishing, I am inclined to put "lagoon," which seems to be a more familiar term in English. Does anyone have any better suggestions?

Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 baïne
3 +1 trough
4 baïnes (small pools that form on sandy shores)
4 rip current
4 runnel
4 -2 dwarf pit
References
see
Une baïne = un creux dans le sable

Discussion

Julie Barber Jan 8, 2021:
@ Daryo: "baine" is typically used in the Basque country (and les Landes) where I used to live, and I often heard it used to refer to the current. Are you basing your thoughts on beaches/fishing on personal reflections or prior knowledge and research? Unless we had more context, we couldn't say 100% which part of the system known as "la baine" is being fished. Do we know that the context is referring to a retreating tide?
Daryo Jan 7, 2021:
Even the most "ordinary" beaches can be very dangerous - especially the ones that are almost flat.

When sea water starts retreating after a high tide, the flattest the beach the faster it retreats.

Even if the water is not too deep and you can "walk" on the sea floor the force of mowing water can be overwhelming.

And the trap is quite similar - until the retreating water starts dragging you out to the open sea, it all looks nice and harmless ...
Julie Barber Jan 6, 2021:
here is a good picture of what it is: http://tpebateaux.e-monsite.com/pages/biologie/houle-vague-e...
and the same picture on an English-language page
https://www.livescience.com/3910-rip-currents-ocean-deadlies...
Carol Gullidge Jan 5, 2021:
@ Conor NOW you're talking! That now all makes sense :)
Conor McAuley Jan 5, 2021:
To Carol "Baïne-fishing":

https://www.top-fishing.fr/contenu/actualite/116/1/special-a...

Sounds ike they get right in there:
"Passer plusieurs heures à moitié immergé en affrontant vagues et courant en effectuant des lancers très puissants est un véritable sport."
Hilary McGrath Jan 5, 2021:
I don't think more context is necessary. If you google 'cafe baïne' or 'restaurant baïne' you'll find plenty of places called after this phenomenon. So, it's well known even if it comes from the Basque language. I didn't know that but I have seen TV programmes discussing the dangers for swimmers. For me, an equivalent would be 'Mistral' - this should be translated as 'Mistral' because it is a phenomenon that occurs in a certain place. You would never explain it 'wind'(?) and would use the French word. Or 'Belharra' is not a 'wave'. For me, pool or pond or lagoon don't quite capture the whole meaning (because it doesn't look like a pond when it just looks like part of the ocean) which is why I would leave the original French word.
Carol Gullidge Jan 5, 2021:
@ Conor yes, I had realised that (believe it or not!), which is why I keep asking for more context. Given the very real danger of "baïnes", it seems very odd if the text is suggesting in any way that people might actually wish to catch fish in or from them! These are not lovely, innocuous rock pools!
BUT, context is everything, and could make sense of what - on the face of it - appears inexplicable to the uninitiated!
And the comparison to a "falaise" - while amusing - is quite misleading, as everybody knows what a "falaise" is (especially as it is usually translated into English, anyway!), whereas a baïne is far less well known.
Conor McAuley Jan 5, 2021:
Text is about fishing, not swimming This, including great photo-diagrams, is a comprehensive explanation of the dangers, for those looking for more background:

https://www.lacanausurfinfo.com/news-meteo-plage-329/le-dang...

To draw a kind of silly parallel, if you were translating the word "falaise", would you point out the dangers of being near cliffs?

And would most French people who live away from the SW coast of France even understand the word baïne (which is perhaps effectively a dialect word?) and the dangers of baïnes?
Carol Gullidge Jan 5, 2021:
@ Thomas the trouble is that - while technically accurate - the term "pool" (whether tidal or not!) sounds far too benign for the danger these pose to unsuspecting swimmers, or even paddlers. Which is why we need more context! What we have been given could imply that anglers might want to set themselves up in one of these "pools" for a pleasant day's fishing! Although I know absolutely nothing about fishing, so could well be mistaken, this somehow seems extremely unlikely to me, given the real dangers of these particular "pools"
Carol Gullidge Jan 5, 2021:
definitely not a lagoon, but more context needed: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/lagoon/

The phrase "Comme pour les baïnes" doesn't tell us anything!

Please could you provide some more of the frequent occurrences of the word in your text, along with their context!
Conor McAuley Jan 5, 2021:
Thomas and Carol "Tidal pool" came to mind for me also, but apparently the term means a pool of water that is left when the tide goes out.
Thomas Miles Jan 5, 2021:
Carol Yes Carol, I agree with the term 'pool' from what I have seen in the pictures. What about 'tidal pool'?
Carol Gullidge Jan 5, 2021:
a danger to bathers from rip currents! Not sure if this is applicable, as context provided is fairly sketchy!
But I have frequently translated this word in the context of tourism and safe bathing, and not only in the Landes area. It refers to those pools and "islands" on the beaches that are revealed at low tide on certain beaches. Swimmers often get fooled by the higher ground (hidden underwater sandbanks) they're standing on, but worse still, get swept out to sea by the extremely powerful rip tides that occur especially at low tide even in apparently safe and deceptively shallow water (I seem to remember, but this last detail is worth checking if it is relevant!). This results in drownings every year, hence the countless warnings to bathers in Brittany and elsewhere. In this context, I usually warn tourists to beware of dangerous rip currents, although I realise you might simply be referring to the temporary pools left in the wet sand as the tide goes out... (?)

Proposed translations

+4
10 mins
Selected

baïne

Hi William
I don't think this is the same as lagoon. I have heard it used in the Landes department and think the term should remain the same. Example from surfer's website here: http://www.goandsurf.com/en/lessons/surfing/
Example sentence:

From Linguee: Baïne: The baïne is a geographical phenomenon unique to the Aquitaine coast of France found in the departements of Gironde, Charente-Maritime and Landes.

Note from asker:
Thank you Hilary; Yes, I think it's clear it's not quite the same thing as a lagoon, so I've abandoned that idea.
Peer comment(s):
agree SafeTex : I think that we now have enough references to go with this although I gave it a neutral at the start as the surfer's reference was a bit dodgy.
1 hr
Yes, I agree. The French word does appear to be used on a lot though (e.g. https://www.ultimatefrance.com/surfing/south-west-france). I've also found 'ridge and runnel system' in an academic paper: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4298954?seq=1
agree liz askew : with (ponds) in brackets
2 hrs
agree Yvonne Gallagher : yes, but with "(residual) pool" as a needed explanation. It may be possible to explain further as per Carol
4 hrs
neutral philgoddard : I don't think there's any need to retain the French when you have words like "lagoon" and "tidal pool".
6 hrs
agree Carol Gullidge : depending on the register and target audience, this could work! When I started translating tourism texts, this wasn't a very current term, and of course - unlike here - the context was always about the danger to bathers...
9 hrs
disagree Conor McAuley : Definitely needs a gloss / I don't think your average English-speaking fishing enthusiast would understand this term on its own
9 hrs
neutral Julie Barber : If the asker wants to keep it in, I'd use the English term (a rip current in my opinion) and add "known locally as "la baine"
1 day 27 mins
agree Daryo
3 days 32 mins
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
1 hr

trough

Looking at Hilary's reference, I think these are troughs in English
Reference:

https://www.basilmanning.co.za/explanation-of-picture-of-sand-banks-and-troughs-30-june-2011-250.html

https://www.britannica.com/science/sandbar

Peer comment(s):
neutral Hilary McGrath : I think sandbanks and troughs (and ridge and runnel, which I also found) seem to refer to the formation of the sand, whereas 'baïne' seems to be about the whole concept, i.e. the sand formation as well as the pool (channel?) of water.
1 hr
agree Julie Barber : Yes, I also think this is the term for the pools of water. The answer depends on whether the focus should be on the troughs or the current (I'm going with the flow :-)
22 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
2 hrs

dwarf pit

Peer comment(s):
disagree liz askew : no such term in relation to Aquitaine/Les Landes
1 hr
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : your French links are fine but your "translation" is not correct English
1 hr
disagree Daryo : have you checked if the term "dwarf pit" is ever really used? And if yes, to mean what exactly?
2 days 11 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

baïnes (small pools that form on sandy shores)

In Liz's reference comment, the word is said to be from Basque, in my source below it is referred to as an Occitan word. Wiki FR says it's from Gascon, a variety of Occitan found in the SW of France.
I don't think "basin" is the right translation for "bassine".

L'origine du mot baïne vient de l'occitan et signifie "petite bassine".

https://www.lacanausurfinfo.com/news-meteo-plage-329/le-dang...

"Sur les côtes de Bretagne ou de la Manche on les nomme bâche. D'autres synonymes pour ce phénomène sont sillon de plage et sillon prélittoral."

"Le mot « baïne » est d'origine gasconne."

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baïne

Wiki in EN does not suggest a translation but employs the word "pool":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baïne


I think coming to the question late in the day I am in a good position to summarise:
1) I think that only an oceanographer could provide exactly the right term in English.
2) And "baïne" should be used to retain the flavour of the text anyway (and perhaps hint at the area the text is talking about too).
3) The origin of the word is irrelevant in the context. And various origins are suggested anyway.
4) Some kind of descriptive gloss in brackets is required, to be as short as possible.

HTH.

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Note added at 5 hrs (2021-01-05 14:14:45 GMT)
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"baïnes" in italics to signify use of a non-English word

small pools formed by backwash

"backwash is the water that runs back down the beach following swash"
https://www.surfertoday.com/surfing/what-is-a-backwash-wave#...

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-01-05 17:46:23 GMT)
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To make it clearer:

small pools that waves form on sandy shores

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-01-05 17:50:51 GMT)
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backwash-formed pools

If you really want to flag the danger, you could go for:

dangerous backwash-formed pools

or

dangerous pools created by backwash

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Note added at 1 day 16 mins (2021-01-06 09:09:01 GMT)
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No problem William. It's probably best to keep a low profile as a rookie!

Although I do encourage you to keep asking and answering KudoZ questions, it's a wonderful and often humbling learning experience.

You ask a question (about a single word in this case) that you think is fairly straightforward, then you are given a wealth of information that can be quite bemusing.

I suppose I'll pick up four points on some other question, no harm done.

In this case (as is often the case, despite site users who will try to insist otherwise), there is more than one "right" answer.

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Note added at 1 day 29 mins (2021-01-06 09:21:50 GMT)
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A very definitely final point, after all that: think about your "audience". A French-speaking sea-bass-loving line-fishing native of Bayonne, for example, will understand baïne on it's own, a bloke from the UK on his holliers will almost certainly not.

For the record, a French native real life friend of mine who is on ProZ said that, for him, a baïne was "some form of geographic area to do with the sea". (C) Tof!
Note from asker:
Thank you Conor, that's very comprehensive. I decided to remain general in the end (the text doesn't really talk about a region or danger, it's a much more general fishing guide, in fact). Doing something with "pool" certainly seemed like the best strategy
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : I can't really agree with "small pools" - which doesn't really do much justice to a Baïne -, but do very much appreciate your being able to put this term into context :)
1 day 2 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 4 mins

rip current

I still think that Conor's good link brings us back to a rip current. The baine is the current between the pool and the sea, not the actual pool of water.

"rip current is a narrow, fast-moving channel of water that starts near the beach and extends offshore through the line of breaking waves. If you do get caught in a rip current, the best thing you can do is stay calm. It's not going to pull you underwater, it's just going to pull you away from shore."
https://oceantoday.noaa.gov/ripcurrentfeature/

Rip currents are bass magnets as bait fish and other food gets dragged into the rip which acts as a food conveyor belt. In a strong rip a large bass has the advantage over the smaller bait fish that just get bullied by the flow.

Rip currents are found on storm beaches all around the British Isles, but are never as easy to locate as Bay Watch would have you believe. The easiest way to find rips from the beach is using polarised sunglasses and look for foam moving out to sea.
https://lurefishingforbass.co.uk/blog/finding-and-fishing-ri...

I used to live in Bayonne, and all swimmers were terrified on the talk of "baines". Now I live nearer to Morecambe bay, which is way more terrifying...

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Note added at 1 day 16 mins (2021-01-06 09:09:01 GMT)
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FISHING A BEACH: RIPTIDES
Fortunately for fishermen, riptides also set up a great fishing situation, as all that current sweeps lots of baitfish seaward through the cut in the sandbar. Waiting to eat them are all kinds of inshore predators, from striped bass and bluefish to false albacore, bonito and even fluke.
https://newenglandboating.com/fishing-a-beach-riptides/

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Note added at 1 day 42 mins (2021-01-06 09:35:07 GMT)
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If you google "fishing in rip currents" and choose google IMAGES, you will see lots of great diagrams
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge : Yes, this explains what it is to anglers, avoiding the need for any potentially awkward glossing. Sadly, the context provided barely hinted at the purpose of the text or the relevance of the word in question. I think we can thank Conor for the context!
7 hrs
Thanks Carol. I agree. Whether a person catches the fish in the trough/pool or the current, this tells you what the overall scenario is (or appears to be from the context)
disagree Daryo : these are currents (moving water) that are associated with baïnes which are sand formations - IOW not the same thing // it's akin to translating "sandy beach" by "sea waves".
1 day 14 hrs
I think this comment is more about personal thoughts than actual knowledge/research
Something went wrong...
1 day 1 hr

runnel

foreshore depression parallel to the trend of a beach;
this is from the French-English geological dictionary, Moureau & Brace, Editions Technip, 2000 (Petroleum Institute).
This term is used in physical geography. A runnel will be still full of water when the tide is out, and runnels will be separated by sand bars. At high tide, they will obviously be hidden, and being deeper could pose a problem for swimmers. They may well have fish in them when the tide is low.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

see

The coast in the Landes in 10 questions - Domaine les Oréadesdomainelesoreades.com › blog › 2014/03/17 › the-coas...
17 Mar 2014 — A « baïne » (it means « small basin » in Basque) is a temporary depression or a residual pond formed between the coast and a sandbank.

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Note added at 1 hr (2021-01-05 10:31:43 GMT)
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The dangers of swimming in France's seas, lakes, rivers and ...www.thelocal.fr › how-to-avoid-the-risks-of-drowning-...
19 Jul 2018 — Baïnes are small pools of water that run parallel to the beach and are ... 43 in Gironde, or 36 in the Landes ," the head of France's Ocean Surf ...

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Note added at 1 hr (2021-01-05 10:32:13 GMT)
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You may wish to keep the French term with an explanation in brackets

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Note added at 1 hr (2021-01-05 10:33:15 GMT)
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Visit Landes / France - Travel guide of Landes - Petit Futewww.petitfute.co.uk › France › Poitou-Charentes
12 Sept 2020 — On the nature side, the Landes have many lakes (Hossegor, Agès) and ponds (Cazaux, Biscarosse, Soustons, Aureilhan). They also have their ...


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Note added at 1 hr (2021-01-05 10:34:09 GMT)
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so

baïnes (ponds)

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Note added at 4 hrs (2021-01-05 12:57:38 GMT)
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Fishing in the Pays Basque and Landes, South West Francewww.touradour.com › towns › fishing
La pêche au Pays Basque, pêcher dans les Landes ... THE LANDES department has 11,000 acres of lakes and ponds, 600 km of waterways second class, ...

Fishing | Landes Chalosse Tourist |Tourist officewww.landes-chalosse.com › ... › Sports fans
Let us add to this that a multitude of hilly lakes, gravel pits (on the edge of Adour) and ponds, often very pleasant sitesperfect for angling. Depending on the ...

Am I flogging a dead horse?
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Thomas Miles : 'pool'?
2 hrs
ponds, as in the references
disagree Julie Barber : referring to it as a pool/pond would be misleading. It's a rip in the sea, and "baine" is the local name for it http://tpebateaux.e-monsite.com/pages/biologie/houle-vague-e...
22 hrs
no, it is a pond or pool
neutral Carol Gullidge : sorry but I feel that the connotations of a "pond" are far too benign for what this is
1 day 5 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 days 14 hrs
Reference:

Une baïne = un creux dans le sable

et non l'eau qui remplit ce creux, ni les courants dans cette eau.

Une baïne est une fosse naine, une partie profonde, l'espace entre des bancs de sable dans la mer, qui peut provenir de courants et d'une certaine direction du vent. La taille et la profondeur d'une cuvette de type baïne peuvent varier considérablement, et avoir un comportement différent en fonction du type de marée.

https://www.aquaportail.com/definition-5984-baine.html
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree Julie Barber : Do people fish in small residual pools of water? you still haven't provided the translation. Research already posted before yours shows various "baines" that are not simply about the tide going down
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
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