| Număr de pagini: < [1 2] | the present progressive in English Inițiatorul discuției: NancyLynn
|
|---|
Patricia Rosas 
Statele Unite
Local time: 16:10
din spaniolă în engleză
+ ...
In Memoriam | present progressive, present participle, and gerund | Dec 4, 2006 |
Puicz wrote:
(3) “Deciding he wanted a change, James stopped writing novels.” This effectively combines the two sentences, (1) “James decided he wanted a change” and (2) “James stopped writing novels”. In (3), ‘deciding’ is a present participle conventionally used to join the two ideas of (1) and (2) but really has nothing to do with the gerund or a progressive tense. It’s simply a conventional kind of conjunction.
Mich would be guilty of throwing a grammatical spanner in the works by using this kind of conventional conjunction after the conjunction ‘until’. He might have achieved a dynamic effect – if that was his aim – by instead using an adjective with the “progressive” ending, - ing, e.g. “He gave all he could give until the stultifying chain-of-command bureaucracy began its demoralising grind.”
First, I want to correct a mistake I made earlier in this thread: We are not talking about gerunds, since gerunds are present participles used as nouns. (I'd also never heard of the "present progressive" but apparently this is a new term to describe ongoing action in the present tense. So apologies there, too, for not checking that out and going with it.)
Second, I think I'm convinced that the explanation above is right if Puicz parsed it correctly. The sentence wouldn't be grammatical because it is using two conjunctions. But I'm confused because I can't find any references on present participles as "conventional conjunctions". So, Puicz, could you post some links that explain this better so that I can read up on it?
Finally, I still feel that "James read his book until deciding to go to the gym" sounds fine to my ear...but Nancy Lynn is entitled to her opinion, too, and I just hope she can find something to read that she enjoys!
Thanks!
| | | | transparx
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:10
din engleză în italiană
+ ...
| this is at least debatable... | Dec 4, 2006 |
Puicz wrote:
...but really has nothing to do with the gerund ....
Gerundive constructions are a subset of participial constructions. Even Quirk et al., in "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," point out that "nominal
-ing participle clauses" can be called gerundive clauses (1063-1064). True, the gerund is typically used in three positions: subject, object, object of prepositions.
I would never say, for instance, that the -ing in the following sentence is a gerund.
1) The man standing outside is a friend of mine.
Clearly "standing outside" is an adjective!
However, whether the -ing found in adverbial clauses is a participle or a gerund is open to debate. It really depends on how one decides to consider words such as "until," "after," and so on. Many syntacticians claim that they are prepositions, which is certainly plausible. If this is correct, then it would also be plausible to claim that the -ing following such 'prepositions' is, in fact, a gerund.
Those who argue for a 'preposition status' of these words would provide evidence such as the following:
2) After take off, the plane ..."
3) After taking off, the plane..."
In addition, if it is true, as many now argue, that there is no distinction between complements and adjuncts --except for the fact that the former are structurally closer to the verb-- then the claim that adverbial participial clauses are gerundive (in that they contain a nominal structure --i.e., the object of the preposition) becomes even more tenable.
Consider:
4) He apologized for disrupting the party.
5) He apologized before leaving the party.
Obviously, "for disrupting the party" is a complement, whereas "before leaving the party" is an adjunct. But the questions are: (i) are both 'for' and 'before' prepositions? (ii) is the internal structure of those two clauses the same? If the answer to both questions is yes, then both "disrupting the party" and "leaving the party" are nominal constructions, i.e., a subset of participial constructions that can be rightly referred to as gerunds. Also, note that the fact that an -ing in adverbial constructions can be preceded by a possessive supports such a claim.
(6) Before his leaving New York, ..."
Finally, of course, one might wonder how adverbial clauses with a bare -ing could be accommodated. Well, it would be possible to argue that they are structurally identical to those constructions containing an overt preposition, except for the fact that in the bare-ing cases the preposition would be covert. After all, there are prepositional phrases in which the preposition remains silent. A case in point would be "home" in (7). Interestingly, if a possessive determiner is inserted in bare-ing adverbial clauses, then the preposition must be realized --just as it would with the phrase [home].
(7) I went [p[home]].
I personally think that an analysis that treats the -ing in adverbial clauses as a nominal category is promising; this is the reason why I used the term 'gerudive' rather than 'participial'.
[Edited at 2006-12-04 09:12]
| | | | Puicz (X)
Local time: 01:10
din suedeză în engleză
My approach to grammar is purely pragmatic and personally, I would prefer to leave the language of sets and subsets to mathematics although, if a ‘pragmatic’ approach (i.e. simply looking at something and trying to understand its function and ‘meaning’ in a particular context) fails to produce a satisfactory answer to what is going on, then of course anything should be tried, even reading a treatise on English grammar. “If it doesn’t work, read the instructions” is, after all, soun... See more My approach to grammar is purely pragmatic and personally, I would prefer to leave the language of sets and subsets to mathematics although, if a ‘pragmatic’ approach (i.e. simply looking at something and trying to understand its function and ‘meaning’ in a particular context) fails to produce a satisfactory answer to what is going on, then of course anything should be tried, even reading a treatise on English grammar. “If it doesn’t work, read the instructions” is, after all, sound advice. Sorry Patricia, but I don’t have any links for you!
The only connection the word ‘deciding’ in the sentence “Deciding he wanted a change, James stopped writing novels” has with the present participle, gerund, or present progressive/continuous is its form. We could all agree to use the past participle instead, as in “Decided he wanted a change, James stopped writing novels”, but this is not the convention. Still, it’s possible to write, “Decided upon a change, James…” ▲ Collapse
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 19:10
Membru (2002)
din franceză în engleză
+ ...
MODERATOR INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI | It was mainly the -ing following until, I think | Dec 5, 2006 |
Patricia Rosas wrote:
Finally, I still feel that "James read his book until deciding to go to the gym" sounds fine to my ear
Yes, I think that's the problem. "Until (doing anything)" just doesn't sound right to me, but that's something I'll just have to live with, I guess.
...but Nancy Lynn is entitled to her opinion, too, and I just hope she can find something to read that she enjoys!
Don't get me wrong, I've read several of Michener's novels (sorry for the error earlier), all of them more than once. This is my first time wrangling Texas, and I'm almost done, and I know I'll be reading it again, along with, I hope, over time, everything else the man has written.
Happy reading to all
Nancy
| | |
|
|
|
NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 19:10
Membru (2002)
din franceză în engleză
+ ...
MODERATOR INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI | You're not allowed | Dec 5, 2006 |
Here's another which just popped into my head:
You're not allowed to say that.
You're not allowed saying that.
I believe the second version is incorrect, and yet, like the infamous greengrocer's apostrophe, it seems to blind me at every turn.
Nancy
| | | |
You're not allowed saying that.
I can honestly say, I've never heard or seen that (and as far as I'm concerned, it is most definitely incorrect).
| | | | Richard Benham
Franţa
Local time: 01:10
din germană în engleză
+ ...
In Memoriam
I am slightly puzzled. To my ear "He did X until deciding to do Y" sounds decidedly odd (but not completely wrong). On the other hand, "Since breaking his leg, he has had restricted mobility" seems fine. So does "He did X before deciding to do Y" (as do similar constructions with "after"). There doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for this distinction: all four words ("before", "after", "until", "since") can be used either as prepositions or conjunctions, but only "until" sounds odd with the "-... See more I am slightly puzzled. To my ear "He did X until deciding to do Y" sounds decidedly odd (but not completely wrong). On the other hand, "Since breaking his leg, he has had restricted mobility" seems fine. So does "He did X before deciding to do Y" (as do similar constructions with "after"). There doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for this distinction: all four words ("before", "after", "until", "since") can be used either as prepositions or conjunctions, but only "until" sounds odd with the "-ing" thing after it.
My advice to NancyLynn would be "Trust your native-speaker instincts!" To non-natives: "Ask a native!"
As for "You're not allowed saying that", it strikes me as completely unidiomatic, although you could mount a grammatical case for it, on analogy with say "You're not allowed jam!" I'd avoid it like the pox. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Număr de pagini: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » the present progressive in English | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
