| Pagine: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Iniziatore argomento: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
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| Perhaps you should learn first of all what a "dialog" is | Sep 5, 2007 |
Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote:
Dear Dimitra,
One more time I wish to repeat:
1. I am not a politician and therefore I refuse to use this forum for political goals.
2. I am writing this words as equal member of this forum and because I work with the language that the rest of the modern world has accepted to call “Macedonian”.
3. I completely agree that it is up to the Greek translators to call this language as they like and in the way they think it satisfies their needs.
4. You can not and will never have the competence to decide how other language communities will call this language. Be sure that the French, Dutch, Italian, Albanian, Turkish and many other language speaking people will continue to call it as they already do, respectively: Macédonien, Macedonisch, Macedone, Maqedonisht, Makedonca, whether you like it or not.
After all, we have to be realistic. Proz.com already uses the name “Macedonian” for the language we are talking about!
Kind Regards,
Sherefedin
Dear Sherefedin,
What I understand from your aphoristic reply is that you have absolutely no intention to make a dialog. You have decided everything leaving no room for the opposite views.
I do not think you have any right to use this authoritative tone of speaking and writing in this place.
Apart from that, keep in mind that the problem of how your country (and consequently your language) will be called has NOT been solved yet, whether we like it or not. Do not behave as like this is solved and no further discussion is needed.
Regards,
Dimitra
| | | | | Stay focused on the subject | Sep 5, 2007 |
I will not allow any personal attacks or disputes. If professionals cannot discuss the subject on purely linguistical level, this thread will be locked.
I would like to add that I have been looking for a compromise, but I haven't proposed neither one solution, nor another. I opened this thread so that we all together find a solution.
If you have arguments, post official arguments based on linguistics, certainly not on futile personal attacks.
Best regards,... See more I will not allow any personal attacks or disputes. If professionals cannot discuss the subject on purely linguistical level, this thread will be locked.
I would like to add that I have been looking for a compromise, but I haven't proposed neither one solution, nor another. I opened this thread so that we all together find a solution.
If you have arguments, post official arguments based on linguistics, certainly not on futile personal attacks.
Best regards,
Said
p.s. This applies to all
p.p.s. I know that I am asking something that might seem impossible, but I am sure that with a nice and diplomatic dialogue we can find an arrangement.
I need both Macedonian communities to agree without fighting. Please be constructive and try to put yourself in the shoes of your neighbor instead of blocking oneself behind any kind of border (historical, regional, social, or whatsoever)
[Edited at 2007-09-05 12:09] ▲ Collapse
| | | | skazakis 
Local time: 22:09
Da Inglese a Greco
+ ...
| Play it safe... | Sep 5, 2007 |
Dear Said,
nordiste wrote:
Microsoft uses "FYRO Macedonian"
Wikipedia (En) has an interesting article about the "Macedonian name dispute". The article proposes "Makedonski" (used in English).
The Council of Europe uses the term "Macedonian (Slavic)".
International bodies, such as the United Nations and the World Health Organisation, say "Macedonian".
This is a purely political issue - not a linguistic one. Therefore, it will not be easy to find a compromise between the two interested communities of translators, quite simply because we don't think and act as professionals on this issue but rather as nationals of the two countries, brain-washed by the respective "official" history textbooks, the animosity (to put it mildly) of the early 90s, etc.
Proz.com is not the UN or the EU or any other political forum. It is a miniature of those organizations though. Like it or not. So, if it is so difficult for them to find a solution (that's why I quoted nordiste), I don't see how we will reach a compromise...
Anyhow. You asked for our opinion, so my vote goes for "Macedonian (slavic)" for the following reasons:
1. I (as a Greek from Thessaloniki, Macedonia) don't find it offensive and I think most Greeks won't.
2. It should not be offensive to my colleagues from FYROM, as nobody has ever denied the slavic origins of the nation and language.
3. It is used by the Council of Europe, the least political of all international organizations.
Just my 2 cents.
Sakis
P.S. A fourth reason: 4. Some of us will be able to add "Macedonian (Greek)" once this language is added by the site staff, without having to repeat this discussion.
[Edited at 2007-09-05 14:14]
| | | | Maria Karra
Stati Uniti
Local time: 15:09
Membro (2000)
Da Greco a Inglese
+ ...
Dear Sherefedin:
you wrote: Proz.com recognizes the existence of the Macedonian [language] by the use of this denomination in the language bar. Very soon we’ll welcome the whole proz.com site in the same Macedonian [language]. Just have a look at the foot of of the proz.com home page and you can read “Macedonian” among the languages in which proz.com is (being) localized.
fter all, we have to be realistic. Proz.com already uses the name “Macedonian” [/quote]
I have seen this argument in several of your postings (in older threads too). I am afraid it is unfounded. I would like to point out the fact that ProZ using a name for a particular language does not constitute it accurate or official. I will give you one simple example which I've used in previous discussions as well: We have Flemish on the list of languages, do we not? There is no Flemish language, the language is called Dutch (for more info you can find plenty of resources on the web, or feel free to read an article I wrote on a related subject); yet we need to distinguish between the Dutch spoken in Belgium and the Dutch spoken in The Netherlands. But the addition of Flemish on the list has caused other problems which we're now trying to address (e.g. inaccuracy, the fact that our Dutch-speaking colleagues from Belgium have to declare two target languages which puts restrictions on the max number of languages they can add to their profile, etc. I could go on but I don't want to go off topic. I'm only mentioning it as an example. Another would be Farsi and Persian. They were added as two different languages, but then we saw some threads about Farsi and Persian being one and the same - Farsi being the word Persian in ...Persian -- and we've had discussions on how to find a way to show that they're not two different languages.)
So please, let's not use the argument that "if ProZ uses it, it is official". ProZ is a venue, not a linguistic authority, and every single day we (including staff, moderators, and members) are trying to make it better with our suggestions. Changes are made all the time. We are here to ensure accuracy (e.g. by means of threads like this one).
Thank you,
Maria
[Edited at 2007-09-05 18:50]
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Maria Karra
Stati Uniti
Local time: 15:09
Membro (2000)
Da Greco a Inglese
+ ...
I agree 100% with what Sakis wrote above.
Sakis wrote:
You asked for our opinion, so my vote goes for "Macedonian (slavic)" for the following reasons:
1. I (as a Greek from Thessaloniki, Macedonia) don't find it offensive and I think most Greeks won't.
2. It should not be offensive to my colleagues from FYROM, as nobody has ever denied the slavic origins of the nation and language.
3. It is used by the Council of Europe, the least political of all international organizations.
To my colleagues from FYROM: you have expressed the need for a new forum as a communication channel in the past and I firmly believe that you should have one. It seems to me that its creation is now being delayed because of the name (understandably so; if this were a simple issue it would have been solved already). So for the sake of making communication amongst yourselves possible and for a peaceful coexistence in these forums with the Greek community -with which you may have differences but also many things in common: love for language, translation; and the sensibilities that Nick talked about, particularly when it comes to national identity- let's try to reach an agreement, even if neither of the two communities is perfectly happy with it.
I believe that the above is a very good compromise and I imagine that it would be accepted by both prozian communities. Let us please accept it and create a new forum.
Regards,
Maria
| | | | | Very well put | Sep 5, 2007 |
Sakis Kazakis wrote:
This is a purely political issue - not a linguistic one. Therefore, it will not be easy to find a compromise between the two interested communities of translators, quite simply because we don't think and act as professionals on this issue but rather as nationals of the two countries, brain-washed by the respective "official" history textbooks, the animosity (to put it mildly) of the early 90s, etc.
Proz.com is not the UN or the EU or any other political forum. It is a miniature of those organizations though. Like it or not. So, if it is so difficult for them to find a solution (that's why I quoted nordiste), I don't see how we will reach a compromise...
Anyhow. You asked for our opinion, so my vote goes for "Macedonian (slavic)" for the following reasons:
1. I (as a Greek from Thessaloniki, Macedonia) don't find it offensive and I think most Greeks won't.
2. It should not be offensive to my colleagues from FYROM, as nobody has ever denied the slavic origins of the nation and language.
3. It is used by the Council of Europe, the least political of all international organizations.
Just my 2 cents.
Sakis
P.S. A fourth reason: 4. Some of us will be able to add "Macedonian (Greek)" once this language is added by the site staff, without having to repeat this discussion.
[Edited at 2007-09-05 14:14]
Could not agree more.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
| | | | | The least political solution - I do agree as well, but what is it? | Sep 5, 2007 |
Sakis Kazakis wrote:
don't think and act as professionals on this issue but rather as nationals of the two countries, brain-washed by the respective "official" history textbooks, the animosity (to put it mildly) of the early 90s, etc.
You are perfectly right. We all have our own concepts based on our own life experience and everyday reality (school, education, social life, etc.). Too bad that we listen very little to the reality of the other and that we think that it is always "our" side that is the best one. This attitude surely puts us in a lose-lose situation.
Proz.com is not the UN or the EU or any other political forum. It is a miniature of those organizations though. Like it or not. So, if it is so difficult for them to find a solution (that's why I quoted nordiste), I don't see how we will reach a compromise...
Again, I agree with you. Proz is neither UN nor EU. Nevertheless, I wouldn't qualify UN as a political body, since the UN try to be as neutral as possible. (Cfr the role they played in numerous wars in the Balkans).
So I think we should give more credit to the UN organization.
Nonetheless, this is only my opinion and of course it is not the only one in this forum.
Anyhow. You asked for our opinion, so my vote goes for "Macedonian (slavic)" for the following reasons:
1. I (as a Greek from Thessaloniki, Macedonia) don't find it offensive and I think most Greeks won't.
2. It should not be offensive to my colleagues from FYROM, as nobody has ever denied the slavic origins of the nation and language.
Just my 2 cents.
Sakis [/quote]
This is an honest and a good proposition. However, allow me just to add my two cents.
This is how in Slavistic linguistics we would interpret it: asking a Macedonian from Ex-YU to call his/her language Macedonian (Slavic) is completely understandable from the Greek point of view, but redundant for the Ex-YU Macedonian.
It would not be the same as if you asked an American to put English (US or American), but it would be rather asking an American to put English (Germanic). The natural reaction would be: "Wait a minute, is there currently any other English LANGUAGE than the Germanic one?" The same goes for Ex-YU and Slavic community in general (Russians, Poles, Czecs, Ukrainians, etc.) Their reaction would be (still on the linguistical level): "Is there currently any other Macedonian LANGUAGE than the Slavic one?"
Indeed, when I went to Russia, I bought a Macedonian-Russian dictionary and it was clear that the Macedonian in question was the Slavic one.
It is used by the Council of Europe, the least political of all international organizations. [/quote]
I am sure that your argument will please the vast majority, since your idea is to use the least political denomination put forward by Council of Europe. But if we found an argument based on even less political criteria than what Council of Europe suggests, would the idea be as warmly welcomed by our Proz members?
Let us admit that among above mentioned propositions it is the least political. Which is good. Well, let us also admit that universities across the world proposing the Macedonian language in their programmes are maybe biased or unaware of the conceptual conflict between the two Macedonia communities. We could also ignore serious information programme such as BBC offering its services in Macedonian.
Nonetheless, I wonder then, why do we deny and ignore all this and accept what Council of Europe says?
To be honest, beside Council of Europe, there is hardly ever a non political body that mentions (Slavic) next to the term Macedonian when it comes to CURRENT LANGUAGES spoken in our everyday world society.
Having this in mind I haven't forgotten the Greek point of view expressed in this forum, so I have tried really hard to find out the most neutral non political possible solution - Organism for International Standardization of languages -- ISO.
Without knowing what I was going to stumble on, I thought that it could be the best to do - go on their site and see what they propose.
Here is what I found:
ENGLISH NAME OF THE LANGUAGES
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Codes for the Representation of Names of Languages
Alpha-3 codes arranged alphabetically by the
English name of language
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
For more info check out how and on what basis they call it the way they call it:
FAQ:
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/faq.html
ISO proposes it the way it proposes it and it explains why it proposes it the way it proposes it: international and local publications, dictionaries, literature, etc.
VERY IMPORTANT: if a change has to be done on ISO, it is always possible, but then you have to provide all the serious arguments to base your propositions and to change the ISO denomination. ISO is updated on the regular basis and is open to all, so it shouldn't be a problem.
So, please it or not, this as neutral as possible organism may not suit some, but at least it has the merit to be non political and unbiased. So either we deny this or we use what Council of Europe proposes? Keep in mind that this latter is undeniably more political than ISO.
P.S. A fourth reason: 4. Some of us will be able to add "Macedonian (Greek)" once this language is added by the site staff, without having to repeat this discussion.
[Edited at 2007-09-05 14:14]
As far as I am concerned, why not. But as a matter of fact, "Non English forum" is listed by languages and not by communities. But if one day there are communities fora, this could be a great idea if there are enough requests for it.
Indeed, one day someone asked why the Bosnian forum isn't called Bosnia-Herzegovina, I simply answered because there is no such language.
Very best regards
[Edited at 2007-09-05 20:35]
| | | | Maria Karra
Stati Uniti
Local time: 15:09
Membro (2000)
Da Greco a Inglese
+ ...
Question to our colleagues from FYROM and from Greece:
Do you have any strong objections to the name "Macedonian (Slavic)" for the new forum? I know that you may not be perfectly happy with it; I think it is clear that there is no golden solution that will make everyone happy. This is a compromise that I'm hoping both communities can accept.
Please, let's not go back to square one. Let's create this forum at last.
Maria
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| One-side compromise is not a compromise | Sep 6, 2007 |
Hi all,
I would like to point out something.
We are speaking of a compromise that will respect both sides sensibilities. We, as Greeks, have already made our step back to compromise: we accepted the word "Macedonian". Before start arguing again, please keep in mind that the official name is still "FYROM - Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia". So why are we definetely obligated to accept the use of "Macedonian"? Perhaps we should object to this one from the beginning.
... See more Hi all,
I would like to point out something.
We are speaking of a compromise that will respect both sides sensibilities. We, as Greeks, have already made our step back to compromise: we accepted the word "Macedonian". Before start arguing again, please keep in mind that the official name is still "FYROM - Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia". So why are we definetely obligated to accept the use of "Macedonian"? Perhaps we should object to this one from the beginning.
But we didn't. We did go a step back and accepted this. Which is exactly the point where the fellow translators from FYROM made their step back? I don't see any such a point. They want it all. But this is not correct, this is not a compromise. You can call it otherwise but definetely not a compromise.
Kind regards,
Dimitra ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 21:09
Da Tedesco a Inglese
+ ...
| The problem is the solution | Sep 6, 2007 |
ProZ.com is already multilingual. You can choose, at present from 30 languages, which language you wish the forum interface to be displayed in.
The obvious solution to this particular problem is for the names of forums etc. in any given localization to reflect the prevailing usage in the language community concerned.
In (the Slavic language) Macedonian, there is no conceptual conflict. Speakers of this language have a name for it, and in that language, and therefore in ... See more ProZ.com is already multilingual. You can choose, at present from 30 languages, which language you wish the forum interface to be displayed in.
The obvious solution to this particular problem is for the names of forums etc. in any given localization to reflect the prevailing usage in the language community concerned.
In (the Slavic language) Macedonian, there is no conceptual conflict. Speakers of this language have a name for it, and in that language, and therefore in the corresponding localization on ProZ.com, they can use that name.
In Greek, there is no need for a conceptual conflict either. When Greeks are speaking Greek to each other, they presumably have some way of unambiguously referring to the language spoken the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Whatever term they use in Greek should therefore be the one to be used in the Greek localization on ProZ.com. That term might well be, literally, in Greek, "language spoken in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but that's for the Greek-speakers to decide.
In the English-speaking interface, English-speakers should decide on what label is to be given to the forum used by speakers of the language spoken in Skopje and the surrounding region. In the German-speaking interface, German-speakers should decide. etc.
Localization has not been implemented very thoroughly on ProZ.com. For instance, clicking on the tab "Non-English forums" in the English interface (or "Niet-Engelse forums" in the Dutch, or "Nem angol nyelvű fórumok in the Hungarian", etc.) calls up a list of non-English-language forums, but the descriptions are still in English, regardless of the language interface selected. For example, the entry for German reads:
German (Ralf Lemster)
Post any topic, in German
Logically, it should either read:
Deutsch (Ralf Lemster)
Zu jedem Thema einen Beitrag einstellen, auf Deutsch
or something similar, in all language interfaces, or it should be translated into the language of the respective interface. Now would be as good a time as any to change that.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We're talking linguistics, not regional borders | Sep 6, 2007 |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
Hi all,
I would like to point out something.
We are speaking of a compromise that will respect both sides sensibilities. We, as Greeks, have already made our step back to compromise: we accepted the word "Macedonian". Before start arguing again, please keep in mind that the official name is still "FYROM - Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia". So why are we definetely obligated to accept the use of "Macedonian"? Perhaps we should object to this one from the beginning.
But we didn't. We did go a step back and accepted this. Which is exactly the point where the fellow translators from FYROM made their step back? I don't see any such a point. They want it all. But this is not correct, this is not a compromise. You can call it otherwise but definetely not a compromise.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
FYROM is exclusevly reserved for the independent country and this is clearly not the subject here. So who made a step back or a step forward in political field is irrelevant for the current official language name.
On the linguistical level, Macedonian as the name of the language was officialized and ratified in the 20th century within Ex-YU and this wasn't a problem back then, since the official language of Ex-Yu was Serbo-Croatian (Croato-Serbian) which, as opposite to the Macedonian, didn't survive.
Today Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more, but the language that was officialized within it survived. What do we do with it? Ignore it? As language professionals, we cannot ignore it and if we do it, then it becomes purely political.
Being aware of the extremely delicate conceptual context in linguistics surrounding the name Macedonian, we can perfectly well understand both sides calling the same concept by different terms.
In this very case, Greek concept is translated by the term "Slavomacedonian". Perfect, nice, nonpolitical, linguistical and very interesting proposition.
However, this Greek concept unfortunately cannot be imposed on people to whom it is obvious that it is Slavic, so the prefix "Slavo-" or brackets with (Slavic) is not required nor needed.
Let me give you another linguistical example. In most Slavic languages the concepts German and Germany respectively are expressed by the word "N(ij)emac" (N(iy)emats) and "N(j)emacka" (N(y)ematchka) even though that hypothetically we could say in Slavic languages "Germanski" (Ghermanski) "Germanija" (Ghermaniya) for the very same concept.
Etymologically speaking "Nijem" means "Mute"! This could sound almost as an insult to Germans, but the fact is that in the past as they couldn't understand each others, today in Slavic languages we have a language called "Muted", a country "Muteland" and its people "Mutes". All this does not prevent Germans to call themselves "Deutsch", "Deutschland" etc.
In this case on the linguistical level nobody imposed to no one to call the other community by the name each language refers to. I've never heard a German asking an English speaker to call him/her Deutsch.
Compare Deutsch in different languages:
In French we say Allemand / Allemagne
In English -- German / Germany
In Bosnian and Croatian -- Nijemac / Njemacka
In Serbian -- Nemac / Nemacka
Briefly each linguistical community has its own concept and this concept I am talking about cannot be imposed by one language community to another.
So if in Greek the word is Slavomacedonian. Then ok, nobody contests that. If for Macedonians from Ex-YU they call it Makedonski. Who can forbid that?
Now, if the concept in the source languages respectively Slavomacedonian (GR) and Makedonski (MK) are translated into English by simply "Macedonian" (cfr dictionaries), even though some might feel it as a frustration or injustice, we cannot impose the denomination from our language or inspired by our language to the target language which already has the word for it.
Can you imagine a quarrel between a French speaker, a Slav speaker and a German speaker on how to call the German language in English?
So, as far as I am concerned, here the compromise shouldn't turn out into political likes or don't likes, but try to find out something that is done by a non political and unbiased body in the field of linguistics.
That's why I turned to ISO. The linguistical criteria gathered to call a language by a certain name must be the same and equal for all languages. In this case ISO calls the Greek language "Greek", based exactly on the same criteria it calls the Macedonian language "Macedonian".
The name ISO proposes doesn't suit ones, but it does not mean that it is a one-side compromise. Moreover, it is unfair to call it so, because if ISO had proposed Slavomacedonian or Macedonian (Slavic) then it wouldn't be criticized. Now I said, ISO is regularly updated, so if you want to criticize it and call it one-side compromise, you can change that by providing documented criteria. I am sure they will examine it and rename it if necessary and if you make the point. In the meantime, Proz cannot be held responsible for a standardized name in English.
Now, if you think that my arguments are biased, then don't listen to me, but at least take your time and read the criteria International Standardization use:
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/faq.html#1
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N.B. Who uses the ISO 639 codes and why?
The alpha-2 code set was devised for use in terminology, lexicography and linguistics.
The alpha-3 code set was devised for use by libraries, information services, and publishers to indicate language in the exchange of information, especially in computerized systems. The codes have been widely used in the library community and may also be adopted for any application requiring the expression of language in coded form by terminologists and lexicographers.
Both sets of codes are widely used in Internet applications.
Very best regards
p.s. If we add (Slavic) next to Macedonian, a real compromise would be then to add next to each language the branch they belong to.
[Edited at 2007-09-06 08:25]
[Edited at 2007-09-06 08:40]
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I fully agree with Mr. Kaljanac that the ISO standards should be applied as most independent reference for the English denomination of languages worldwide.
In order to avoid similar discussions in the future I may hope that the proz.com staff will consider possibilities to draft a declaration stating that ISO English denomination of languages is applied all over the proz.com site and has to be endorsed and respected by all its members.
As far as other languages are con... See more I fully agree with Mr. Kaljanac that the ISO standards should be applied as most independent reference for the English denomination of languages worldwide.
In order to avoid similar discussions in the future I may hope that the proz.com staff will consider possibilities to draft a declaration stating that ISO English denomination of languages is applied all over the proz.com site and has to be endorsed and respected by all its members.
As far as other languages are concerned they should all respect the fundamental right of the other to name a language in the way he/she does.
Kind Regards,
Sherefedin
[Edited at 2007-09-06 08:47] ▲ Collapse
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alinguista
Local time: 21:09
Da Francese a Macedone
+ ...
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote: alinguista wrote: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
Hello,
I am having a headache due to a conceptual conflict of the word Macedonian in English and other nonSlav/nonGreek languages.
Therefore, if we want to create a forum called "Macedonian" in English, we have a big dilemma. It seems that we are in need of official neologisms which both communities seemingly refuse to adopt.
Anyone has an aspirine for this one?
[Edited at 2007-09-02 17:55] Hello, I do not think there is a conceptual conflict. Macedonian is the official language of Republic of Macedonia and if we act only as language professionals this should not be a problem. International organizations such as United Nations, Council of Europe and European Union use "Macedonian". Outsourcers and other communities for translators too. Best regards UN, EU and NATO use "Macedonian", but Council of Europe use "Macedonian (Slavic)"
Have you checked your information? If you like you can have a look at the link below:http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/Basic%20Texts/Basic%20Texts/The%20European%20Convention%20on%20Human%20Rights%20and%20its%20Protocols/
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alinguista wrote: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote: alinguista wrote: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
Hello,
I am having a headache due to a conceptual conflict of the word Macedonian in English and other nonSlav/nonGreek languages.
Therefore, if we want to create a forum called "Macedonian" in English, we have a big dilemma. It seems that we are in need of official neologisms which both communities seemingly refuse to adopt.
Anyone has an aspirine for this one?
[Edited at 2007-09-02 17:55] Hello, I do not think there is a conceptual conflict. Macedonian is the official language of Republic of Macedonia and if we act only as language professionals this should not be a problem. International organizations such as United Nations, Council of Europe and European Union use "Macedonian". Outsourcers and other communities for translators too. Best regards UN, EU and NATO use "Macedonian", but Council of Europe use "Macedonian (Slavic)" Have you checked your information? If you like you can have a look at the link below:http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/Basic%20Texts/Basic%20Texts/The%20European%20Convention%20on%20Human%20Rights%20and%20its%20Protocols/
Take a look at their thesaurus
http://www.echr.coe.int/Library/annexes/thesaurus.pdf
you will find simply "macédonien" - "Macedonian", but also "macédonien slave" - "Macedonian Slav"
| | | | skazakis
Local time: 22:09
Da Inglese a Greco
+ ...
Dear Said,
I appreciate and even admire your sense of responsibility as a moderator of this forum in opening this issue to discussion. Again, I think that this discussion could go on for ever. Always enjoying a good argument though, regardless of the outcome being in favour or against my personal views, I will try to be less spartan in this post, arguing on your posts.
Their reaction would be (still on the linguistical level): "Is there currently any other Macedonian LANGUAGE than the Slavic one?"
As a matter of fact, there are minorities in both the Greek and the Bulgarian part of the geographical area called "Macedonia" since the 4th century B.C., who do speak local dialects which are locally referred to as Macedonian. My family comes from one of those regions. I am not going to argue about the origins of the language currently spoken in FYROM by approx. 1,2 million people (65% of all population, the rest being Albanian, Roma and others) according to this source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html
The fact that minorities in Greece and Bulgaria do not have a written form of their dialects is irrelevant. Romany (gypsy language) is also a non-written language but it is recognized and protected by numerous international bodies. In some cases, there are even examples of dictionaries with non-written languages (one that I know of is the Greek-Pomak dictionary).
Nonetheless, I wonder then, why do we deny and ignore all this and accept what Council of Europe says?
Well, I accept it because the CoE is about Human Rights, not politics, power, networking, public relations and the like. It is also highly representative as it has a Committee of Ministers, a Parliamentary Assembly and a Congress of Local and Regional Authorities. This (to me) means that compromise within the CoE is more difficult but also the product of true consensus. Also, both countries (FYROM and Greece) are represented there, therefore they have both agreed to this nomenclature. All the above are also the reasons I prefer it over ISO as a reference.
...the most neutral non political possible solution - Organism for International Standardization of languages -- ISO.
I do see your point about ISO. Interestingly enough, in the same page that you referenced, and actually right above the Macedonian language, there is the Macedo-Romanian language. It is well known that Romanian is not a slavic language, hence (I guess) the need for ISO to pinpoint the difference.
Obviously, I am not going to question ISO's judgement nor contest their decision process, let alone make a charge on ISO...
Question: Does proz.com apply the ISO standards in every other case? I don't know the answer - quite honestly I don't have the time to research it. If yes, it should be applied here as well. If not, then we should go on arguing .
Very best regards
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