| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Proofreading problem Thread poster: Trisha F
|
|---|
Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 19:16
French to English
| I know it's Monday but | Dec 30, 2013 |
Hard as I might try, I fail to understand how asking for necessary information can waste anyone's time.
How can you not have time to send people files they need to work on???
| | | | Ledja
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:16
English to Albanian
+ ...
| Speaking from own experience | Dec 30, 2013 |
As a matter of fact, I have never been refused a sample on request, be it translation or proofreading, (and I doubt it was down to just good luck ). Waste of time can only happen if we don't know what we're jumping into. I have, in my early translation days, neglected to follow this little step in the process of accepting a job, and ended up banging my head against the computer desk. In my defence, back then my skills were limited ... See more As a matter of fact, I have never been refused a sample on request, be it translation or proofreading, (and I doubt it was down to just good luck ). Waste of time can only happen if we don't know what we're jumping into. I have, in my early translation days, neglected to follow this little step in the process of accepting a job, and ended up banging my head against the computer desk. In my defence, back then my skills were limited to talent, some experience and lots of zest. Now that I'm older and wiser (happier indeed about the latter than the first), I consider professionalism in the field to include some aspects that do not necessarily relate to translation alone.
Of course, feelings and opinions on the topic can vary, as does experience with this particular issue. I can't speak from an outsourcer's point of view - never been one - but as a translator, I can see that many others in my shoes share my feelings.
Best to all,
Ledja
[Edited at 2013-12-30 13:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:16
French to English
Ledja wrote:
Of course, feelings and opinions on the topic can vary, as does experience with this particular issue. I can't speak from an outsourcer's point of view - never been one - but as a translator, I can see that many others in my shoes share my feelings.
In my previous life as a PM, I can say that any translator who would say yes off the cuff without having got to know me would be labelled "foolish" in my personal database.
It wouldn't necessarily be something that would prevent me from working with them, but I much preferred them to see the files before accepting them. Even if they said yes without looking, I would ask them to confirm once I'd sent the files, otherwise I would feel uneasy until they delivered.
Once we had got to know each other well, it would be different. The translator knew the type of stuff I sent, knew that I had always given the file the onceover to make sure that the description of underwear didn't give way to some Terms of Sale halfway through. I did occasionally say "if I'm calling you it's because I know it's right up your street" but that would not prevent me from sending the files to get their OK.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I didn't waste his time at all | Dec 31, 2013 |
Annamaria Amik wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
I'm a proofreader and an out-sourcer at the same time.
As an out-sourcer:
If a proofreader of mine wants to see a sample of the file before accepting the job, I'd immediately look for someone else. It is a waste of both my time and his time. I really don't care about his wasting his own time but he should not waste mine.
It is absolutely normal to ask for a sample of the translation before accepting proofreading jobs! Why? For the very reason this thread was started. Because the translator can end up doing translation at proofreading rates. And as an outsourcer, you shouldn't waste his time either.
This is simply because it is hardly possible for any of my translation vendors to send me a poor draft. If the proofreader to whom I have assigned a proofreading job should end up re-translating the file, I shall pay him or her the fee for translation, as long as they can document the need.
[Edited at 2013-12-31 02:00 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| A few more points before I withdraw from the topic | Dec 31, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Why should these agencies cover the cost for others, who take the same attitude as you do?
I didn't quite get this. I don't have an attitude. If I do, all of my regular clients like that attitude.
I'm a very flexible person. To work with me, everything is easy: no time to issue a PO beforehand? Not a problem. It is totally OK as long as they confirm the job assignment by e-mail.
My clients usually just needs to send me the job, confirm it, and wait to receive a good deliverable. So I saved them a lot of time. Working with me, their project management costs might have been cut in half.
Because it is easy and simple to work with me, some of my clients started pouring jobs on me. Some of them asked me to report the actual time I have spent in proofreading their files ,and pay me accordingly no matter how much time I report. They knew I'm honest anyway.
To those who tend to decline proofreading jobs: You might be focusing too much on one side of the issue. If you find a right agency, your hourly income might be higher proofreading than translating.
[Edited at 2013-12-31 02:04 GMT]
| | | | | Not the same situation then, is it? | Dec 31, 2013 |
jyuan_us wrote:
This is simply because it is hardly possible for any of my translation vendors to send me a poor draft.
That does at least explain your stance in this thread.
Which is a thread about someone who HAS been sent a poor draft.
I could just leave it there, because at this point, I think the absurdity of going into a thread about a specific problem merely to hold forth about how you never have that specific problem is clear.
But instead I will (perhaps almost equally pointlessly) add my weight to the sensible advice already given to the OP. Avoid this problem in future by never accepting proofing/review jobs without seeing them first. Not even from jyuan_us * As to this current situation, well, as has been said, you could try explaining (one hopes you are using "track changes" or something similar so the level of changes is obvious) and hope the client pays you for the extra effort. A decent client will. If they don't, then you could review your position vis-a-vis the ongoing nature of that relationship
*This is not a stance popular with some PMs. They like to get everything scheduled and forget it (I would too, if I were them). You may find this results in being offered less proofing/review work. Given the standard of the last job, this is possibly a good thing. Alternatively, experience with a client *might* show you can relax this rule eventually. I never do with agencies (even ones I've worked with for years and years).
Happy New Year to one and all.
| | | | Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:16
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The infamous poor draft | Dec 31, 2013 |
To be fair, this is the first time a ridiculously poor draft has been sent to me for proofreading so I had not thought about seeing the file first. I knew the translation specialism involved and accepted purely out of sheer trust. I was pretty confident I would receive a professional translation because in an ideal world, things should be that way. If you say you are a translator and work for a good agency you should be skilled. Sadly, things are not always like that.
I do not proof... See more To be fair, this is the first time a ridiculously poor draft has been sent to me for proofreading so I had not thought about seeing the file first. I knew the translation specialism involved and accepted purely out of sheer trust. I was pretty confident I would receive a professional translation because in an ideal world, things should be that way. If you say you are a translator and work for a good agency you should be skilled. Sadly, things are not always like that.
I do not proofread often but whenever I have had to, I have pretty much received decent to very good drafts. There has been the odd sloppy translation but it was still workable. Never in my life had I encountered something like that. I mean, it looked like a joke. I suspect many of the sentences were entered into Google Translate or any similar app. How can people have the cheek to do that? It did not look like a human being had worked on it and I wonder if the so-called translator was at least bilingual.
Anyway, thank you so much for your observations and I hope you have a fantastic 2014, with plenty of good translation work coming in. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Doubly wrong | Dec 31, 2013 |
jyuan_us wrote:
As an out-sourcer:
If a proofreader of mine wants to see a sample of the file before accepting the job, I'd immediately look for someone else. It is a waste of both my time and his time. I really don't care about his wasting his own time but he should not waste mine.
Very unfortunately, many
------------------outsourcers------------------
have the exact same attitude as you do of disregard for how an acceptable level of quality is achieved. Producing quality takes care, effort, genuine interest and time. The person who will do the work needs to evaluate the job in advance. Nobody else can do that for him/her. There cannot be any assumptions.
=====================================
jyuan_us wrote:
As a proofreader:
I have never asked my clients to send me a sample of the file before accepting a job. The reason is the same as above. Potentially, the time to be wasted in doing so is not limited to that spent in previewing the file. Such a request may trigger a lengthy discussion which I cannot afford.
Very unfortunately, many
------------------proofreaders/editors------------------
have the exact same attitude as you do of disregard for how an acceptable level of quality is achieved. Producing quality takes care, effort, genuine interest and time. The person who will do the work needs to evaluate the job in advance. Nobody else can do that for him/her. There cannot be any assumptions.
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Your assumption about my work is simply opposite to the fact | Dec 31, 2013 |
Miguel Carmona wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
As an out-sourcer:
If a proofreader of mine wants to see a sample of the file before accepting the job, I'd immediately look for someone else. It is a waste of both my time and his time. I really don't care about his wasting his own time but he should not waste mine. Very unfortunately, many ------------------ outsourcers------------------ have the exact same attitude as you do of disregard for how an acceptable level of quality is achieved. Producing quality takes care, effort, genuine interest and time. The person who will do the work needs to evaluate the job in advance. Nobody else can do that for him/her. There cannot be any assumptions. ===================================== jyuan_us wrote:
As a proofreader:
I have never asked my clients to send me a sample of the file before accepting a job. The reason is the same as above. Potentially, the time to be wasted in doing so is not limited to that spent in previewing the file. Such a request may trigger a lengthy discussion which I cannot afford. Very unfortunately, many ------------------ proofreaders/editors------------------ have the exact same attitude as you do of disregard for how an acceptable level of quality is achieved. Producing quality takes care, effort, genuine interest and time. The person who will do the work needs to evaluate the job in advance. Nobody else can do that for him/her. There cannot be any assumptions.
My agencies value their translator's work and pay them properly, so the quality of the translation I have proofed tend to be good. And as a outsourcer, I always choose the best fit I can get to take a translation assignment, and it is a harder job for them to make a poor quality piece than a good piece, simply because they write well naturally. They have the traits.
It has turned out that I have become the most preferred linguist for quite some decent agencies. The files I did for my direct clients, of course done by my linguists, often goes directly to their printing vendors. And sometimes they hire 3rd party reviewers, and we have never get any negative comments from the reviewers. As a result, my direct clients kept referring new leads to me.
As an freelancer, I'm always considerate of my clients, and I would do anything I can to make proofreading jobs, no matter in what quality they are, the best possible final product. Sometimes I did take a lot of time but sometimes the draft is already excellent.
If someone would only proofread very high quality drafts and refuse to do the ones with lower quality, he is creating difficulties for his clients, simply because they have to have the file, which you say is poor in quality, re-translated. Their deadlines may prevent that from happening.
If someone only thinks of making easy money for himself, and refuse to help when the client has a file to proofread that is less than ideal in quality, I consider that selfish and it is a hostile attitude towards an agency. I would never do that to my agencies, and I'll not allow this kind of freelancers to continue to work with me.
Good quality come from the right people, not from the people who only think of themselves.
We don't disregard how an acceptable quality is achieved, as you said. Just to the contrary, we know how an excellent quality is achieved, and we achieve that goal in our own way, which is unique but which has worked perfectly. We mostly work with the "high end" clients, and they treat quality much more seriously than some of us think. I always meet their quality requirements, and sometimes go the extra mile, simply because I cannot afford to lose them. And they evaluated almost every single translation I or my team produced, and we have never failed to meet their expectations.
[Edited at 2013-12-31 22:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-12-31 22:29 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:16
French to English
Personally I would say that not letting the proofreader see the text to be proofread before accepting the job is not a considerate attitude to the proofreader.
I'm not saying I refuse badly translated texts (although I do from some people who seem to think that they can save money by asking a cheap translator to do the job with the attitude that it "doesn't matter cos we've got Texte lined up as proofreader"). I'm saying that you need to see the job to know whether you can fit it i... See more Personally I would say that not letting the proofreader see the text to be proofread before accepting the job is not a considerate attitude to the proofreader.
I'm not saying I refuse badly translated texts (although I do from some people who seem to think that they can save money by asking a cheap translator to do the job with the attitude that it "doesn't matter cos we've got Texte lined up as proofreader"). I'm saying that you need to see the job to know whether you can fit it in. If it's badly translated and needs a lot of work before reaching deliverable stage, I might not have the time even if I'm willing.
I wouldn't say that it's easy money, proofing a great translation. I once missed a crucial mistake proofreading the best translator I've ever had the honour of proofreading, simply because I was thinking "well she never gets it wrong, I don't need to switch my brain on". So I've trained myself to keep my focus no matter what. It takes a whole lot of effort! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ledja
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:16
English to Albanian
+ ...
| In all honesty... | Jan 1, 2014 |
... jyuan_us, the points you make are completely beside the point:
- You keep highlighting your skills and good work practice - nobody here questioned them, and others have them too, believe it or not.
- You propagate that the way you run your activity as an outsourcer and a translator/proofreader is the most ethical, quality-assured, bond-forging, time-saving... you name it. I wonder how the rest of us here manage in the trade.
- You dismiss those who ... See more ... jyuan_us, the points you make are completely beside the point:
- You keep highlighting your skills and good work practice - nobody here questioned them, and others have them too, believe it or not.
- You propagate that the way you run your activity as an outsourcer and a translator/proofreader is the most ethical, quality-assured, bond-forging, time-saving... you name it. I wonder how the rest of us here manage in the trade.
- You dismiss those who want to ensure they're up to the task by checking the task as selfish and time-wasters (quoting: "think only of themselves" and "want to make easy money")
The point raised here and the much debated question is: What to do when we land in a proofreading job that is going to take as much time and work as it would if translated from scratch? Your answer to that so far has been: Go ahead and do it, and you'll be paid accordingly for your effort. If only... ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| This is where I was from | Jan 2, 2014 |
Ledja wrote:
... jyuan_us, the points you make are completely beside the point:
- You keep highlighting your skills and good work practice - nobody here questioned them, and others have them too, believe it or not.
- You propagate that the way you run your activity as an outsourcer and a translator/proofreader is the most ethical, quality-assured, bond-forging, time-saving... you name it. I wonder how the rest of us here manage in the trade.
The points I made was in response to those that have assumed or concluded that my way of doing business is "disregarding how acceptable quality can be achieved".
I simply don't know how they came to that conclusion so I was not able to directly argue against their points. All I could do is to state my ways of doing business have worked best for both me and my clients, including both agency clients and end clients.
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Please don't take it personally | Jan 2, 2014 |
Ledja wrote:
- You dismiss those who want to ensure they're up to the task by checking the task as selfish and time-wasters (quoting: "think only of themselves" and "want to make easy money")
I was just describing how I feel as a project manager when someone only wants to proofread good copy and refuse to give any hand with a copy that he thought is not good. That kind of behavior actually made me feel sick. When I used terms you didn't like that much, I was referring to some of my former vendors, not anyone here, because I have had no business interaction with anyone in this thread so far. So nobody is encouraged to take it personally.
I think a description about how a PM might think in response to a translator/proofreader's behavior could at least shed some light, thus it could be beneficial to at least some readers of the thread.
[Edited at 2014-01-02 00:54 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 13:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Ledja wrote:
I wonder how the rest of us here manage in the trade.
Firstly, I don't know. Secondly, I was talking about how I did business, didn't imply anything else. Thirdly, if you inferred from my statement about how I did my business that I was implying everyone else' business model is no good, there could be some logical fallacy in there, thus it is not arguable. When someone says A is good, he could, but might not, be implying B, C, D is not good.
[Edited at 2014-01-02 00:53 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:16
French to English
| Proofreading bad work is soul-destroying, translating well is up-lifting | Jan 2, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: Ledja wrote:
- You dismiss those who want to ensure they're up to the task by checking the task as selfish and time-wasters (quoting: "think only of themselves" and "want to make easy money")
I was just describing how I feel as a project manager when someone only wants to proofread good copy and refuse to give any hand with a copy that he thought is not good. That kind of behavior actually made me feel sick. When I used terms you didn't like that much, I was referring to some of my former vendors, not anyone here, because I have had no business interaction with anyone in this thread so far. So nobody is encouraged to take it personally. I think a description about how a PM might think in response to a translator/proofreader's behavior could at least shed some light, thus it could be beneficial to at least some readers of the thread. [Edited at 2014-01-02 00:54 GMT]
I have no problem proofing rotten work, in that I refuse to be paid per word for proofing. So if I end up re-translating the entire thing I will end up being paid the same, or even more, than if I had translated it.
The problem is when the proofreader is being paid per word, because their rate will typically be maybe a third of what the translator was paid yet they actually do more work (they have to start by ploughing through the rotten translation, wince, check, end up spending more time researching not only the terms in the source text but also those of the target, hone and hone again to ensure good style...).
And it's not really ethical then to just hand in the second version of the translation. If the client has been promised a translation proofread by a second person, that's not what they're getting.
Sometimes an agency repeatedly sends such trash to be proofread that you end up just not wanting anything to do with them. Tweaking bad translations is soul-destroying, whereas producing a pristine translation from scratch can be truly up-lifting.
I know I have to be careful about taking on the right kind of work for me, because I need to feel good about my work. Otherwise I might just as well do some other thing that pays better and leaves me more free time. This doesn't mean I won't help a valued client out of a hole, of course I will, only it has to be an exception, because someone slipped up, not because it's part of their business plan.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Proofreading problem | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
