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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

untereinander

English translation:

in equal shares per stirpes

Added to glossary by thefastshow
Jun 8, 2023 14:30
11 mos ago
62 viewers *
German term

untereinander

German to English Law/Patents Law (general) UK English
Ersatzerben sind jeweils die jeweiligen Abkömmlinge eines Kindes untereinander nach den Regeln der gesetzlichen Erbfolge erster Ordnung.

or

Für den Fall, dass einer der Bedachten vor dem Längstlebenden von uns verstirbt, sollen seine Kinder – untereinander zu gleichen Teilen – an seine Stelle treten.

How is untereinander to be understood here? I don't see how "amongst themselves / between each other" makes any sense here

Thanks for any help
Proposed translations (English)
5 +1 in equal shares per stirpes
4 +1 jointly
4 amongst themselves/between each other
4 in proportional amounts
4 -1 amongst one another
3 in equal shares inter se (as between themselves)
3 split among the offspring in equal shares
1 amongst each other
References
comment
Change log

Jun 12, 2023 14:00: thefastshow Created KOG entry

Discussion

Wendy Lewin (asker) Jun 9, 2023:
Thanks everyone, your thoughts have helped me
Björn Vrooman Jun 9, 2023:
Examples The thing is, you'll get a lot more Ghits once you restructure the sentence a bit and no longer try to "tie" the kids to a person (but the estate, which--in a way--is also true for Tony's link).

Better yet:
"...the part of the estate apportioned to your children will be shared equally amongst them."
https://www.graysons.co.uk/wills-estates-trusts/intestacy-ru...

"In either of the cases above, the grandchildren and great grandchildren will inherit an equal share of the amount their parent/grandparent would have received."
https://www.graysons.co.uk/wills-estates-trusts/intestacy-ru...

Interesting case here:
"The will in question gave the testator’s (the legal term for the person who makes a will) estate to her three daughters, but contained the words ‘as shall survive me and if more than one in equal shares absolutely’.

This is legal terminology meaning that the estate was to be distributed to the children who survived her and, if more than one child survived her, it was to be distributed equally between them."
https://www.birkettlong.co.uk/site/library/legalnews/will_cl...
Björn Vrooman Jun 9, 2023:
Note on untereinander Taking a break from work to say that I agree with uyuni, tbh.

In line with Sam's explanation, "untereinander" denotes some kind of intragroup relationship (as in: "macht das unter euch aus"); it's used in this context to avoid certain grammar issues, as in your second sentence.

You could write:
"Für den Fall, dass einer der Bedachten vor dem Längstlebenden von uns verstirbt, sollen seine Kinder zu gleichen Teilen an seine Stelle treten."

But then, "gleich" could be misinterpreted to mean *each* kid of that particular heir will get the specified share in full (=three kids, three times the money)--so you add the word "untereinander" to say "within that particular group."

It's similar to what they write here:
"...in most cases, half of the deceased’s estate goes to the surviving spouse, the other half goes to the child of the deceased (if more than one child, the children have to split this half share between themselves)."
https://www.crosschannellawyers.co.uk/most-germans-die-witho...

[...]
TonyTK Jun 9, 2023:
Wendy: It's at
https://e-justice.europa.eu/166/EN/succession?SWEDEN&init=tr...
Search for "inherit jointly" (there don't seem to be any page numbers in the document).
Wendy Lewin (asker) Jun 9, 2023:
Perhaps I did wonder that...
uyuni Jun 8, 2023:
Perhaps one might just omit 'untereinander' without loss of important information in the sentence(s)...?

Proposed translations

+1
1 day 22 hrs
Selected

in equal shares per stirpes

This is exactly what is meant by "untereinander zu gleichen Teilen":
https://probatestars.com/what-does-in-equal-shares-per-stirp...

"Black’s Law Dictionary.
Traditional per stirpes means that the children of a deceased parent divide up their parent’s share."

also check:
https://osujismith.ca/what-does-per-stirpes-mean/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_stirpes :
"Per stirpes (/pɜːr ˈstɜːrpiːz/; "by roots" or "by stock")[1] is a legal term from Latin, used in the law of inheritance and estates. An estate of a decedent is distributed per stirpes if each branch of the family is to receive an equal share of an estate. When a heir in the first generation of a branch predeceased the decedent, the share that would have been given to that heir would be distributed among that heir's issue in equal shares. It may also be known as strict per stirpes[2] or the old English approach,[3] and differs from distribution per capita, as members of the same generation may inherit different amounts.[4] In section 33 of the Wills Act 1837 in England and Wales, it is called according to their stock.[5] "

I would suggest skipping any solution containing "untereinander" of some sort.
Peer comment(s):
agree Lancashireman
1 day 5 hrs
Cheers
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you"
3 hrs

amongst each other

Among vs. Amongst - Dictionary.com
https://www.dictionary.com › amo...
15 dic. 2016 — In both speech and writing, among and amongst are interchangeable. Both are grammatically correct and mean the same thing. However, amongst is ...

Among vs. Amongst | Grammarly
https://www.grammarly.com › blog
30 sept. 2022 — Both words are prepositions that mean “into, surrounded by; in the midst of, so as to influence; with a share for each of; in the number, class, ...

Among and amongst - Grammar - Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org › ...
31 may. 2023 — Among means 'in the middle or included in a larger group of people or things'. Among is commonly followed by a plural noun phrase:.

Among vs. Amongst—Explanation and Examples
https://languagetool.org › ... › Style
Among and amongst are synonyms, but one is favored over the other. We'll tell you which one it is and also provide example sentences.

Among vs. Amongst: What's the Difference? - Writing Explained
https://writingexplained.org › amo...
Amongst vs. among are both prepositions, meaning in the company of or surrounded by. They can be used interchangeably, so choosing one over the other depends on ...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Andrew Bramhall : "each other" of two, " one another" of more than two.
23 mins
neutral philgoddard : I don't understand what this means, or why we need so many English references for a word we all know.
46 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : Nor do I
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
4 hrs

amongst one another

In the event that one of the beneficiaries predeceases the longest-lived of us, his children - divided in equal shares amongst one another - shall take his place.

Substitute heirs are in each case the respective descendants of an offspring themselves according to the rules of first-order intestate succession.
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : I don't think this conveys a clear meaning.
20 mins
Yep Phil, it could be clearer
neutral AllegroTrans : No do I
36 mins
See above
disagree Cilian O'Tuama : Stolen word-for-word from DeepL again. And again it makes little sense: "children divided in equal shares"!? A brain can be better than AI. //Then maybe calm down and re-read what you wrote.
10 hrs
Not the children divided you clown. Pro-rata apportionment of any inheritance the children/offspring may receive. Commentary up to your usual superCillianous standard..
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

amongst themselves/between each other

It looks to me that in both of the given contexts, the term "untereinander" indeed means "amongst themselves" or "between each other." It refers to the relationship or interaction between individuals who are part of the same group or category. In the context of inheritance and succession, "untereinander" is used to specify that the distribution or substitution is to be done exclusively within the specified group or category, without involving individuals outside that group.
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs

jointly

I don't normally post answers without references, but I can't find one. However, I believe this is the best translation in the context - they all have equal rights, and are effectively a single entity.

I agree that "amongst themselves/between each other" doesn't make a lot of sense.
Note from asker:
Tony TK -can you send me a link to where I can find that sentence on the EU e-Justice portal please?
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : but perhaps "jointly and severally" would be better
13 mins
disagree Adrian MM. : Ha, ha! jointly (and severally) is wrong, as no liability attaches to the issue (singular only). Obiter, re AT's barb I can no longer see, as a member of the Bar for life, I'm not an ex-Barrister (with a capital B).
32 mins
As usual I have no idea what you're talking about.
agree TonyTK : " ... If the deceased was married, the estate goes to the surviving spouse. After the death of the surviving spouse, the children or grandchildren inherit jointly ..."; EU e-Justice Portal
11 hrs
Exactly! Thanks.
neutral Andrew Bramhall : Tony TK: there speaks the voice of sanity.
16 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs
German term (edited): zu gleichen Teilen untereinander

in equal shares inter se (as between themselves)

Funnily enough, some client UK Solicitors - who had obviously scraped through law finals without reading a single legal textbook - used to query the Latin phrase of inter se, though '*as* between - rather than simply between - themselves . is routinely and professional drafting in UK Wills and Articles of Assoclation and esp. Articles of Partnership aka Partnership Deed.

Middling CL / confidence level as this legal drafting technique I have used in practice may be new and novel to others.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2023-06-08 19:33:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

-> inter se Definition: among or between themselves
Example sentence:

Equal shares refer to dividing the whole or a group of objects into equal parts. ... He wants to divide them equally between himself and his two friends,

nter se Definition: among or between themselves

Reference:

http://www.meaby.co.uk/i-give-my-estate-to-my-children-in-equal-shares/

Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : This has the ring of being almost convincing; problem is, I cannot find a single ghit
4 hrs
neutral Andrew Bramhall : Surely an autobiographical allusion in your first comment, and a subconscious desire to return to the fusty cloying atmosphere of a Dickensian legal office possibly run by Ebeneezer Scrooge's ancestors in the rest.
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
12 hrs

in proportional amounts

One cannot say "in equal amounts" because not all such descendants may be in fact of equal rank.
A literal translation would not work here because there are differences in the traditional German and English expressions of the thought.
Something went wrong...
1 day 6 hrs

split among the offspring in equal shares

“In the event that…, the estate will be split among the offspring in equal shares.”

To make this work, you have to rephrase either “untereinander” or “an seinen Platz treten”, as these two phrases don’t go together in their English versions.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

16 mins
Reference:

comment

is it referring to "descendants" rather than "child"?
Note from asker:
yes, I think so, not sure what difference it makes?
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Andrew Bramhall : Yes, it's referring to the descendants' offspring;
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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