| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21] > | translation is dead as a profession Thread poster: Daniel Rich
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 07:56
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| On the other hand... | Jun 28, 2022 |
Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:
I have been trying hard to find a qualified translator to take over but nobody seems to be interested. As soon as I give them a one page test-document to translate (ie. the header of an Indictment) they quit.
Try to assign a job into European Portuguese and I'm sure that you will have a handful of Brazilian Portuguese translators "able" to do it.
I'm sick and tired of seeing this behaviour. Even here in one of those translation contests this same "practice" happened before.
Yesterday, I was going to do the revision of a legal (banking) text supposedly translated into European Portuguese.
To my surprise, I opened the file and saw different terms used in Brazilian Portuguese, words with different accents, overuse of personal pronouns, and other differences that explain why Portuguese is divided into two variants.
The PM of the agency assigned the job because the translator claims to translate into both variants. My ass!
Why translating into a language that we aren't capable of? For once, why don't certain people play fair?
No offence meant, but please let's not cheat.
| | | | | Before translation died | Jun 28, 2022 |
Baran Keki wrote:
Judging by your modus operandi as described by someone on another thread (tent, candlelight, pencil etc.) you must have thrived in 1993.
Trouble is, the price of pencils has risen tenfold and I will be destitute within a month. Although at least I already have a tent.
| | | | Adieu 
Ukrainian to English
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| My guess is this comes down to PRICE | Jun 28, 2022 |
Also, if they paid enough, any competent Brazilian professional would quickly pick up perfect European Portuguese.
expressisverbis wrote:
Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:
I have been trying hard to find a qualified translator to take over but nobody seems to be interested. As soon as I give them a one page test-document to translate (ie. the header of an Indictment) they quit.
Try to assign a job into European Portuguese and I'm sure that you will have a handful of Brazilian Portuguese translators "able" to do it.
I'm sick and tired of seeing this behaviour. Even here in one of those translation contests this same "practice" happened before.
Yesterday, I was going to do the revision of a legal (banking) text supposedly translated into European Portuguese.
To my surprise, I opened the file and saw different terms used in Brazilian Portuguese, words with different accents, overuse of personal pronouns, and other differences that explain why Portuguese is divided into two variants.
The PM of the agency assigned the job because the translator claims to translate into both variants. My ass!
Why translating into a language that we aren't capable of? For once, why don't certain people play fair?
No offence meant, but please let's not cheat.
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 07:56
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| How is it that? | Jun 28, 2022 |
Adieu wrote:
Also, if they paid enough, any competent Brazilian professional would quickly pick up perfect European Portuguese.
I've never met one. Have you?
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| I also think poor quality is to do with a lack of willingness to pay a fair rate | Jun 29, 2022 |
Adieu wrote:
Also, if they paid enough, any competent Brazilian professional would quickly pick up perfect European Portuguese.
expressisverbis wrote:
Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:
I have been trying hard to find a qualified translator to take over but nobody seems to be interested. As soon as I give them a one page test-document to translate (ie. the header of an Indictment) they quit.
Try to assign a job into European Portuguese and I'm sure that you will have a handful of Brazilian Portuguese translators "able" to do it.
I'm sick and tired of seeing this behaviour. Even here in one of those translation contests this same "practice" happened before.
Yesterday, I was going to do the revision of a legal (banking) text supposedly translated into European Portuguese.
To my surprise, I opened the file and saw different terms used in Brazilian Portuguese, words with different accents, overuse of personal pronouns, and other differences that explain why Portuguese is divided into two variants.
The PM of the agency assigned the job because the translator claims to translate into both variants. My ass!
Why translating into a language that we aren't capable of? For once, why don't certain people play fair?
No offence meant, but please let's not cheat.
Adieu wrote:
Also, if they paid enough, any competent Brazilian professional would quickly pick up perfect European Portuguese.
expressisverbis wrote:
Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:
I have been trying hard to find a qualified translator to take over but nobody seems to be interested. As soon as I give them a one page test-document to translate (ie. the header of an Indictment) they quit.
Try to assign a job into European Portuguese and I'm sure that you will have a handful of Brazilian Portuguese translators "able" to do it.
I'm sick and tired of seeing this behaviour. Even here in one of those translation contests this same "practice" happened before.
Yesterday, I was going to do the revision of a legal (banking) text supposedly translated into European Portuguese.
To my surprise, I opened the file and saw different terms used in Brazilian Portuguese, words with different accents, overuse of personal pronouns, and other differences that explain why Portuguese is divided into two variants.
The PM of the agency assigned the job because the translator claims to translate into both variants. My ass!
Why translating into a language that we aren't capable of? For once, why don't certain people play fair?
No offence meant, but please let's not cheat.
Of course the agencies don't have to go for the most expensive supplier out there, but hiring someone with very low rates, well, we all know exactly what that means! It isn't even primarily about the fact that a non-professional can pose as a professional. I've come across work from people who don't even try! I am sure they could do better if they only tried. They aren't happy with the rate they are working for and are trying to make up for it by not really trying and getting the job done as soon as humanly possible!
It boggles the mind that, in this day and age, one wouldn't at least consider making use of the pluricentricity of their target/working languages. Surely with all the, often free, resources we have a click away it's at least as doable as learning another source language later in life? In fact, most people can probably get much better at working into a pluricentric variant of their target than understanding the nuances of the source they are learning from scratch - within the same time span in the first few years they're attempting such training.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 08:56
French to English
expressisverbis wrote:
Yesterday, I was going to do the revision of a legal (banking) text supposedly translated into European Portuguese.
To my surprise, I opened the file and saw different terms used in Brazilian Portuguese, words with different accents, overuse of personal pronouns, and other differences that explain why Portuguese is divided into two variants.
The PM of the agency assigned the job because the translator claims to translate into both variants. My ass!
Why translating into a language that we aren't capable of? For once, why don't certain people play fair?
No offence meant, but please let's not cheat.
We get the same in UK/US English. Clients have often asked me translate into US English. I always say that I can put the US spell check on, and I'll use all American resources for the terminology, and I do watch US series and films (oops no, movies!!) but that I can't guarantee that I won't use some UK-specific idiom Americans will have never heard of, so they really should have my translation revised by somebody who speaks US English.
I can quite well imagine they'd tell the person revising that I'd said I can do both.
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 07:56
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Of course, we can "consider making use of the pluricentricity of target/working languages", that's the reason of language localisation, remember?
But I only translate into my native language, even if I can understand quite well spoken and written Brazilian Portuguese.
It's not easy to explain how different both variants can be to someone who doesn't work or knows European or Brazilian Portuguese, but I will give you some examples to h... See more Of course, we can "consider making use of the pluricentricity of target/working languages", that's the reason of language localisation, remember?
But I only translate into my native language, even if I can understand quite well spoken and written Brazilian Portuguese.
It's not easy to explain how different both variants can be to someone who doesn't work or knows European or Brazilian Portuguese, but I will give you some examples to help:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/7073750
The asker needs a creative expression in Brazilian Portuguese, but the use of personal pronouns is quite different, and here the problem relies on this part of Portuguese grammar.
I also posted a few months ago a text in Brazilian Portuguese localised into European Portuguese, and only a native can see the enormous difference between both variants:
https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/352904-lets_meet_the_winners_of_"game_on"-page2.html
So, as you can see, there is a reason why Portuguese is divided into two variants, and why clients/agencies need PT-PT and PT-BR.
To have a good quality translation, to not waste time, money and other resources, I believe the most reasonable and professional way is working on your own variant.
[Edited at 2022-06-29 15:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I am all for believing whatever helps us in our day to day and even whatever we choose to believe | Jun 29, 2022 |
expressisverbis wrote:
Of course, we can "consider making use of the pluricentricity of target/working languages", that's the reason of language localisation, remember?
But I only translate into my native language, even if I can understand quite well spoken and written Brazilian Portuguese.
It's not easy to explain how different both variants can be to someone who doesn't work or knows European or Brazilian Portuguese, but I will give you some examples to help:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/7073750
The asker needs a creative expression in Brazilian Portuguese, but the use of personal pronouns is quite different, and here the problem relies on this part of Portuguese grammar.
I also posted a few months ago a text in Brazilian Portuguese localised into European Portuguese, and only a native can see the enormous difference between both variants:
https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/352904-lets_meet_the_winners_of_"game_on"-page2.html
So, as you can see, there is a reason why Portuguese is divided into two variants, and why clients/agencies need PT-PT and PT-BR.
To have a good quality translation, to not waste time, money and other resources, I believe the most reasonable and professional way is working on your own variant.
[Edited at 2022-06-29 15:15 GMT]
but Adieu and I said a specific thing. If you wanted, you could learn to work in (the) other variant(s) of your pluricentric native language, just as easily or probably more easily than acquiring any other specialism, or learning a new source from scratch.
It also depends what you are working on. Your native variant or dialect only matters so much that it might hold you back in the most creative translations that are borderline copywriting and also it matters a great deal how much research you are willing to do on any given project. Why would a translator with English in their pair research how the UK banking system works and the UK jargon if they are working on a US banking assignment? No, I don't know much about Portuguese but I do speak quite well two pluricentric lingos, I've been a translator for many years now and surely Portuguese natives do research as part of your work as well?
Working into Brazilian variant, you'd need to be willing to spend more time than you ordinarily would getting it right, at least in the first decade of attempting this, as well as manage to negotiate a rate that would allow you the luxury of not being the fastest translator out there, and so on. Kay already indicated the software part of things and there's indeed so much tech out there that can help with this!
This isn't about professional or personal beliefs, yours or mine, for that matter, but the fact that if you accept that a translator can learn an additional source and incorporate it into their work or acquire a new specialism, then you must accept that the same can be done with a pluricentric variant of any such language, and specialising in the very pluricentricity of things is a valid thing.
I didn't even say that everyone should do it but surely for many translators considering it would be required, given how much the market is changing?
If you think about it, not being able to change with the times will have been the "professional death" of any professional in any field, or at least will've rendered them obsolete, and us translators, we cannot be exempt from that universal fact.
I'm not trying to tell you how you shall best adapt to the times, only you can decide that. I am simply pointing out a way, a potential specialism in no way inferior to any other specialism.
Edit: You say you never met one! I say, you can become one! Both of these can be true. This isn't an either or situation. You can also become whatever else helps you stay competitive, I'm not trying to get you over to the pluricentric side. Though it's fun and if I wanted to recruit you, I'd say come to the pluricentric side, expressisverbis, we've got both biscuits and cookies!
[Edited at 2022-06-29 17:37 GMT]
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Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
| I wouldn't know | Jun 29, 2022 |
But imho the issue isn't that they CAN'T, but just that they don't get paid enough to care to pay much attention to the differences
expressisverbis wrote:
Adieu wrote:
Also, if they paid enough, any competent Brazilian professional would quickly pick up perfect European Portuguese.
I've never met one. Have you?
| | | | | And not to... | Jun 29, 2022 |
... forget: The crisis in Brazil!
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 00:56
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Languages vs variants not always what you might think | Jun 29, 2022 |
A native speaker of European Portuguese translating into Brazilian Portuguese or a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese translating into European Portuguese would be like a native speaker of Danish translating into Norwegian or a native speaker of Norwegian translating into Danish.
| | | | | Can’t really learn a new target language | Jun 29, 2022 |
expressisverbis wrote:
I've never met one. Have you?
I have never come across anyone from the US who can write UK English convincingly.
I think translators should stick to their own variants. It’s madness for Brazilian and Portuguese, or US and UK, translators to be taking each other’s work.
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 07:56
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| A few simple words | Jun 29, 2022 |
My experience, my common sense and my professional honesty tell me, over all these years, that a language is more than just words:
it’s a culture.
My apologies to the OP for hijacking this topic.
| | | | | Are you sure you thought this through? | Jun 29, 2022 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
A native speaker of European Portuguese translating into Brazilian Portuguese or a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese translating into European Portuguese would be like a native speaker of Danish translating into Norwegian or a native speaker of Norwegian translating into Danish.
Why stop at pluricentric variants? Can speakers of different dialects of pluricentric variants translate into their native variants? Should we even allow people with regional dialects in UK or clean urban cockney and people with a strong Texan drawl and other less prestigous US dialects to call themselves native speakers of the variant? Should only the purest RP speakers and people with the most prestigious US dialects work as translators into English?
What about the two distinct dialects of Swedish and the fact that speakers of both look down on the speakers of the other dialect just as much as Portuguese speakers from Brazil and Portugal do? Which one is the only right dialect that would be allowed to translate into Swedish in your opinion?
It's suprising how little some people here consider actual linguistics and even common sense when you come up with your "professional" opinions. And no, comparing a single pluricentric language, however heterogeneous it might be, to two completely different however similar languages isn't exactly sound linguistic either, though it's most definitely much less absurd than the "I've never met" metric!
| | | | LIZ LI
China
Local time: 15:56
French to Chinese
+ ...
| Weired discussion amongst other discussions | Jun 30, 2022 |
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I thought that the word for noodles was 麵 only, and 线 looks more like the word for "money" to me. I cannot give you any examples right now, but you have guessed right that these kind of mistranslations also apply to Japanese as well.
In Chinese, 麵 (traditional) or 面(simplified) refers to noodles made from flour, generally northern style.
Its substitute in southern regions where farmers grow rice instead of wheat, is called 米线 (literally "rice" +"line"), which is actually rice noodle. (Among which Yunnan Style Rice Noodle is the most famous variant)
So 米 could be "meter" or "rice" at the same time.
As for money, it's 钱, not 线. But they do share a same component on the right.
It's weired to disuss this specific question here...
But translators like I am, who translate from or into a non romanized language, won't consider our profession a dead one, because we live in a world where critical deficiencies of MT are all around us.
(Assuming that @Yasutomo will agree on that)
As for the rates, it's true that we stuck in the bottom.
But when big corps finally find out the limits of algorithms, and get to admit that MT is not as omnipotent as they thought, things will get better, eventually.
[Edited at 2022-06-30 02:05 GMT]
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